Brothas...I have a question for you

[YorubaQueen]

Peace...
So last night I was talking to a friend of mine who is curretly in a relationship (for about two years) with a sistah and they are about to have a child soon. So eventually she brought up marriage ad he said that he wasn't sure if he'd ever get married because he didn't trust himself. And I asked him to tell me more about that because I was like huh?
Now mind u, this is a cat that is very educated, in the world and book view. Has great knowledge on African and African Am history and isn't very willing to take things for face value alone. He's an independent thinker as well.

He said that within a relationship (and I am paraphrasing and condensing here) that if he isn't getting what he's supposed to be getting at home sexually and a situation 'happens' to come up (he was very sure to state that he wasn't intentionally looking elsewhere for sex, just if a moment occured) where he could have sex with another sistah that he would take it and that it should have no bearing on the relationship that he and his woman are in. I responded that the trust between he and his woman was going to be fucked up basically and that he wasn't the only person within the relationship but he disagreed with me, of course...so we carried on with the conversation.
He also said that women believe in monogamous relationships because this is what white male fairy tales have told them over the years as well as men losing their manhood because they are forced to be in monogamous relationships because of these fairy tales. (this white America fairy tale had me spinning a little bit because he used white French relationships to back up his requirement to have sex when he wanted to because of how they allow the mistress to be known and seen and it isn't taboo for her to be known. But he failed to realize that not all African communities and people have polygymous relationships/households). He also said (in his case only) that he was genetically wired to need sex on a regular basis and that whenever he wants it he should have it. BUT he did say that he would be upset if his woman did the same thing (because we do it out of spite or because of emotional reasoning. I came back and said well who are you to say that the woman u are having the 'moment' with isn't doing it just because? Sometimes that's how affairs start. )
Along with this arguement, he also had some issues with courts and whatnot because I was asking him about bringing a child into the situation. He said that as long as he was paying the bills and taking care of the financial and physical parts of the home for his woman and child that the courts shouldn't try to rape him financially of his money because he just had "a fuck" with another woman. I told him that child support in most cases requires a man to pay a lot less than what he would if he were within the relationship...but he was referring to alimony and used the 50Cent situation as an example (which IMO was a silly example because not all of us are rich like that..but maybe yall can discuss that as well).
There have been discussions on the board about polygymous (hope I spelled that right) relationships with the man being the head of the hosue, and the women KNOWING about the other women and using the situation as a community building, warrior raising, economic boosting situaition. I know that there is love involved in the relationship as well, BUT it isn't just about "a fuck". (I am not one for that type of relationship at this point in my life BUT I can understand it and wouldn't knock it). But in my friend's case, IMO, he's saying that it's his right to have pussy when he asks for it and if he don't get it then it's ok for him to go out and get it elsewhere and that it shouldn't have any bearing or standing on the relationship with the woman he's 'committed' to or is in a 'committed relationship' in; as long as he is paying the bills at home.

This is pretty much what I can remember from the convo (it was about 1am) but my question is to the brothas (and sistahs, chime in as well but I think because this is a man discussing this a man would have better responses to the question IMO)is this: is a woman required to give up the ass JUST because yall are in a relationship? Is it right for you as a man to possibly break the trust that is built within a relationship by getting ass elsewhere? Does monogomy make u LESS of a man and strip you of your manhood? What really constitutes a relationship? Also, is his thinking of a woman being required to perform in the bedroom a white man's logic (lets talk about how white men believed in their women being property...Henry VIII anybody?)?

I can't think of any other questions but if I do I'll add them. Please respond because this convo has me spinning...

YQ

[G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.]

Tell him to marry a yoruga slut instead of marrying a black queen since he believes women are property.

[Sun Ship]

Sister YorubaQueen, I have always respected the fact that you have tried to bring forth into the realm of discussion what we all try to sometimes ignore concerning our male or female relationships, and please don’t take this as criticism, but I just don’t know how there is going to be a balanced discourse when you are delivering what this brother said in the third person. When a person is sometimes trying to work out their inner conflicts talking with someone they trust, they will sometimes out of frustration boldly step on even their own parameters of sensitivities, beliefs, and ideas. We might say things we feel and don’t want to feel, and we say all types of things sometimes just to vent. Let’s be honest…Brothers do it and Sisters do it…

There is a lot that needs to be weighed in what you have repeated and what you have said as far as your own beliefs in response to what you heard. Again, I respect your intent and I’m sure it is worthy of discussion, but I just wanted say that before I said anything else.

peace

[tyydae]

He seems to be using the knowledge he aquired about different African communities for his own benefit.

I'll say this; if the woman he is involved with is clear about his intentions than "so be it." As long as they are on the same page. If he has spoken to her about where he stands and what not, then there isn't anything else to this.

However, if he has not shared his thoughts, feelings, beliefs with this woman he is currently in a relationship (and I suspect he has not because he said he does not trust himself) and instead decides to spring this shit on her after he plays the field, and breaks her heart because she was under the impression they were in a monogamous relationship than he's a coward, chump-ass educated nicca. The hell with how educated he appears.

You know, we have those too in this movement, men who have very little real understanding of polygamy themselves but still trying to wet their man-hood in the name of it.

[Sun Ship]

Sister YorubaQueen, let me say this… he and all of us both Black male and female need to get off of this sister’s “giving up some ass” kick, for this is merely objectifying a woman’s sexuality, and it’s a statement and idea supported just as much by women as it is by men. So if we’re trying to move away to some degree from what we believe is chauvinism or patriarchy, than we need to listen to what we say.

Also, if a man is about taking care of his child naturally, than I guarantee you that coming out of pocket is less stressful than dealing with the court system. Like they say, “you get what you pay for” and if a man can achieve a workable financial relationship with the mother of his child it is more convenient and prosperous for both, let alone the child. I say this because in the context of self-made men, and men who work for themselves especially, I know plenty of brothers who will do anything in the world for their children and prove it 24/7 who have been hounded and almost literally persecuted by the court when they hit a short term setback. Even then they stay on call for their children and do all they can, but the court doesn’t take into consideration anything that is done outside of their financial judgment. What this does for those who are under the court’s ruling is make many men see their relationship with their children within a budget, and sometimes these men will not respond readily to unexpected expenses and problems as they focus more on a court enforced financial obligation every month. This may help the mother financially, but in the long wrong can damage or weaken the child’s relationship with his father.

And I can also say there probably ain’t no use in the brother throwing polygyny into the mix, for that is really a dead issue in 99% of the Black community (no matter how conscious), even if the ratio of Black men to Black women was 1 to a hundred. And if he and his mother-to-be woman-friend weren’t already there, both believing in this deeply and in each one’s own mind, then he’s just looking to use polygyny as a red herring because he has no other reasonable path to take…and I say this because both of them obviously didn’t think through (as usual) their relationship both sexually and communally.

Unfortunately, we as a culture have not devised a unique African-centered path for this ongoing dilemma as of yet, for this situation is the same old tune repeated. I can at least say he’s trying to be honest about it, for many brothers (sad to say) will act out the most-noblest path and then do what this brother says he feels anyway… It is obvious, he need not take this sister and his self through the drama…go his way and be the best father he can, and his opinion about child support doesn’t matter anyway for she will have the last say on that, one way or the other (that’s the law).

I know many will criticize this brother and that’s just part of the game, but he is operating in a culture that has folded and imploded on many levels when it comes almost any type of functional male and female relationships, and those who can toe the line have become the exceptions and not the rule. And those who are the exceptions unfortunately gloat in their need to criticize those who are not.

[Koro Oji]

This well thought out response is greatly appreciated, as we aren't encouraged in this society to develop and maintain the kind of mutual cooperation necessary for successful relationships, be it a marriage or anything else.

We tend to have a lot of trouble even discussing these issues intelligently.

I was doing a consultation with a brother a few weeks ago, ragarding how he could incorporate his business.

On the basis of the difficulties he was experiencing with the mother of his 10 year old daughter [perpetrating fraud to the family court by applying for social services, claiming that she didn't know where the brother was, while at the same time receiving CASH payments from him for the care of their daughter], I expanded the consultation to include a means by which he could manage the corporate structure so that it could cut him the kind of regular paychecks that make for good evidence should she attempt to drag him into family court again, while at the same time safegaurding income that is generated elsewhere.

I've got too many older male friends of mine who have lost years off of the time for the raising of their children, due a severly damaged relationship with the mothers. And, these are responsible men!

YQ, I think you should give the brother some credit for at least trying to think things through before getting married.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Sister YorubaQueen, let me say this… he and all of us both Black male and female need to get off of this sister’s “giving up some ass” kick, for this is merely objectifying a woman’s sexuality, and it’s a statement and idea supported just as much by women as it is by men. So if we’re trying to move away to some degree from what we believe is chauvinism or patriarchy, than we need to listen to what we say.

Also, if a man is about taking care of his child naturally, than I guarantee you that coming out of pocket is less stressful than dealing with the court system. Like they say, “you get what you pay for” and if a man can achieve a workable financial relationship with the mother of his child it is more convenient and prosperous for both, let alone the child. I say this because in the context of self-made men, and men who work for themselves especially, I know plenty of brothers who will do anything in the world for their children and prove it 24/7 who have been hounded and almost literally persecuted by the court when they hit a short term setback. Even then they stay on call for their children and do all they can, but the court doesn’t take into consideration anything that is done outside of their financial judgment. What this does for those who are under the court’s ruling is make many men see their relationship with their children within a budget, and sometimes these men will not respond readily to unexpected expenses and problems as they focus more on a court enforced financial obligation every month. This may help the mother financially, but in the long wrong can damage or weaken the child’s relationship with his father.

And I can also say there probably ain’t no use in the brother throwing polygyny into the mix, for that is really a dead issue in 99% of the Black community (no matter how conscious), even if the ratio of Black men to Black women was 1 to a hundred. And if he and his mother-to-be woman-friend weren’t already there, both believing in this deeply and in each one’s own mind, then he’s just looking to use polygyny as a red herring because he has no other reasonable path to take…and I say this because both of them obviously didn’t think through (as usual) their relationship both sexually and communally.

Unfortunately, we as a culture have not devised a unique African-centered path for this ongoing dilemma as of yet, for this situation is the same old tune repeated. I can at least say he’s trying to be honest about it, for many brothers (sad to say) will act out the most-noblest path and then do what this brother says he feels anyway… It is obvious, he need not take this sister and his self through the drama…go his way and be the best father he can, and his opinion about child support doesn’t matter anyway for she will have the last say on that, one way or the other (that’s the law).

I know many will criticize this brother and that’s just part of the game, but he is operating in a culture that has folded and imploded on many levels when it comes almost any type of functional male and female relationships, and those who can toe the line have become the exceptions and not the rule. And those who are the exceptions unfortunately gloat in their need to criticize those who are not.

[YorubaQueen]

Peace...

Sun Ship, thanks for responding...I was looking forward to yours the most because u really break it down to help us understand more about what we are talking about and what we need to be accomplishing.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Sister YorubaQueen, let me say this… he and all of us both Black male and female need to get off of this sister’s “giving up some ass” kick, for this is merely objectifying a woman’s sexuality, and it’s a statement and idea supported just as much by women as it is by men. So if we’re trying to move away to some degree from what we believe is chauvinism or patriarchy, than we need to listen to what we say.

This is so true...it goes to the one thread that was about the new genre of black women books that are out that are about female sexuality and whatnot. I'm not opposed to sex and one's sexuality is their business, but we do use it, IMO to a point where it's ALL that we have and all that we should be able to offer on both ends of the gender spectrum. So, it isn't just a one way deal (which is what I think you're trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong). But since this was a male talking to me about it, and as a female I can't really speak on what males (generalizing here) think or do, I wanted to aske a males POV. But we as women need to have this discussion as well.

Also, if a man is about taking care of his child naturally, than I guarantee you that coming out of pocket is less stressful than dealing with the court system. Like they say, “you get what you pay for” and if a man can achieve a workable financial relationship with the mother of his child it is more convenient and prosperous for both, let alone the child. I say this because in the context of self-made men, and men who work for themselves especially, I know plenty of brothers who will do anything in the world for their children and prove it 24/7 who have been hounded and almost literally persecuted by the court when they hit a short term setback. Even then they stay on call for their children and do all they can, but the court doesn’t take into consideration anything that is done outside of their financial judgment. What this does for those who are under the court’s ruling is make many men see their relationship with their children within a budget, and sometimes these men will not respond readily to unexpected expenses and problems as they focus more on a court enforced financial obligation every month. This may help the mother financially, but in the long wrong can damage or weaken the child’s relationship with his father.

I agree it is less stressful if a man is to come out of pocket for child support and whatnot, but my friend was talking financially and that was it. I can understand his dislike for the system when it comes down to hwo courts treat men in regards to child support. But my point was if all you pay is a certain percentage, there will be some men that will just pay that and call it a day. I was just referring to the actual amount of money that has to be given to the child. Not to say that the man has to be broken down (because I have seen MANY a men get screwed because of child support cases) but to think that in a relationship with a woman and a child that is all that matters doesn't make sense and he is (in that regard) coming out a hell of a lot cheaper by just doing the financial part (nto including emotional, physical, etc.)

And I can also say there probably ain’t no use in the brother throwing polygyny into the mix, for that is really a dead issue in 99% of the Black community (no matter how conscious), even if the ratio of Black men to Black women was 1 to a hundred. And if he and his mother-to-be woman-friend weren’t already there, both believing in this deeply and in each one’s own mind, then he’s just looking to use polygyny as a red herring because he has no other reasonable path to take…and I say this because both of them obviously didn’t think through (as usual) their relationship both sexually and communally.

He didn't throw that in the mix but while he and I were talking about it, it was something that came to my mind because of the conversations that we've had on the board about it in the past. I just used polygymy as an issue to compare his arguement agaisnt.

Unfortunately, we as a culture have not devised a unique African-centered path for this ongoing dilemma as of yet, for this situation is the same old tune repeated. I can at least say he’s trying to be honest about it, for many brothers (sad to say) will act out the most-noblest path and then do what this brother says he feels anyway… It is obvious, he need not take this sister and his self through the drama…go his way and be the best father he can, and his opinion about child support doesn’t matter anyway for she will have the last say on that, one way or the other (that’s the law).

I totally agree...I can't knock his opinion or beliefs (no matter how much I disagreed with it) but he was so unwilling to see her side of the story as well or of the situation if it ever came to that. Too many folks see relationships as one sided (one thing that he said to me last night was that relationships are geared specifically towards women, esp. in regards to the whole fairy tales that we as women have been fed) and forget that relationships are partnerships and we have to gain and/or lose certain things to make the relationship work better as we stay together longer. I'm not saying that a person has to forget who they are, but if they love another person as much as they love themselves, they will do what they need to do to make sure that both parties are happy and not just put themselves as the only important entity in said relationship.

I know many will criticize this brother and that’s just part of the game, but he is operating in a culture that has folded and imploded on many levels when it comes almost any type of functional male and female relationships, and those who can toe the line have become the exceptions and not the rule. And those who are the exceptions unfortunately gloat in their need to criticize those who are not.

I am not looking for criticism, but I am looking for POVs from men within this site becase IMO we all here are more African than AA in thought and action. I'm glad that he was able to share that with me (because we've gotten into MANY arguements because of this convo that we've had over many years) but it seems like its more hurtful than helpful in anyrelationship and it isn't IMO again, it isn't making us as men and women in relationships functin any better...

TY Sun Ship for responding

YQ

[tyydae]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

I know many will criticize this brother and that’s just part of the game, but he is operating in a culture that has folded and imploded on many levels when it comes almost any type of functional male and female relationships, and those who can toe the line have become the exceptions and not the rule. And those who are the exceptions unfortunately gloat in their need to criticize those who are not.[/i][/b]

Toe what line? Please explain that.

And as far as the brother saying this

relationships are geared specifically towards women, esp. in regards to the whole fairy tales that we as women have been fed

. Sure, that's the image you see in movies, and on television but that is mos def not what is going on in many households.

He might have a point if we are looking at it materialistically (men shower women with gifts and presents, take her on trips, etc.) but overall very little has changed as far as men acknowledging that women are life givers. And then treating her as such.

It's 2008, and the only thing I have yet to hear a man say what he has to give up once he gets married is his freedom. Ask any of your aunts, female cousins and sisters what they felt like they had to give up and you'll hear everything from freedom, time, creativity, their urge to live, and their dreams to be or do such and such.

What I have noticed from reading different books on women rights, and women studies is that the women will conform to the barriers and constraints placed on her by society every time. She'll steal a few moments out of the day for herself and teach her daughters to do the same (notice I said steal). All the while she'll support her significant other or husband. No questions asked.

But, ask a man to understand the ways of a women, ask him to give up something so that his woman can feel like a millions bucks and 9 times out to 10, he is unable to. He has to go into the book of "men are meant to." Can't men get it around their thick skulls that the black women is in pain.

In my opinion, we should hold off on polygamy for a while, until we can repair the males ego, and help the woman untangle her damn self.

[Sun Ship]

Originally Posted by tyydae

Toe what line? Please explain that.

What I meant by "toe the line" is that in this pseudo-culture for many people staying together over the long term has become a challenge, and many times they have to function contrary to social pressures and a culture that doesn’t actually give no more than the illusion that it’s conducive to a long term happy and stable relationship than that which is actually happening in most homes. As a matter of fact, all one has to do is to read the rest of your post, as you bear witness (not pointing at your home) that amongst many monogamous situations there is an imbalance which in many cases eventually lead to conflict and separation (the statistics bear this out).

And also, I think there is some validity to what the brother says about “fairy tale” image of life and marriage that is sold to women from the cradle unto adulthood, for women are seduced more than either of the two genders as if they are a commodity, and they have been conditioned to be the main conduit through which consumerism functions in this society. As American propagandist Edward Bernays refer to as, “happy machines”. Now though Bernays was generalizing still all one has to do is look at the subversive symbolism in marketing and you will see that the female is either directly or indirectly targeted. This is why the American culture is so perverse, not merely because of its sexual debauchery (as always assumed) but because almost all of its cultural holidays (holy days) and rituals are based on, associated with, or invented for the capitalistic exploitation of the American public. For example, it was the diamond industry that made a diamond literally culturally synonymous with engagement.

And as “fairy tales” relate to monogamy, the “white” male has never been able to make monogamy work as a western marital concept, he’s the world’s biggest adulterer and whore, and has always kept the backdoor open to divorcing and remarrying as many times as needed. And we wonder why we are having problems as we try to emulate this countries cultural leftovers, or function within it.

[Mamazen]

Originally Posted by tyydae

Toe what line? Please explain that.

And as far as the brother saying this . Sure, that's the image you see in movies, and on television but that is mos def not what is going on in many households.

He might have a point if we are looking at it materialistically (men shower women with gifts and presents, take her on trips, etc.) but overall very little has changed as far as men acknowledging that women are life givers. And then treating her as such.

It's 2008, and the only thing I have yet to hear a man say what he has to give up once he gets married is his freedom. Ask any of your aunts, female cousins and sisters what they felt like they had to give up and you'll hear everything from freedom, time, creativity, their urge to live, and their dreams to be or do such and such.

What I have noticed from reading different books on women rights, and women studies is that the women will conform to the barriers and constraints placed on her by society every time. She'll steal a few moments out of the day for herself and teach her daughters to do the same (notice I said steal). All the while she'll support her significant other or husband. No questions asked.

But, ask a man to understand the ways of a women, ask him to give up something so that his woman can feel like a millions bucks and 9 times out to 10, he is unable to. He has to go into the book of "men are meant to." Can't men get it around their thick skulls that the black women is in pain.

In my opinion, we should hold off on polygamy for a while, until we can repair the males ego, and help the woman untangle her damn self.

I need to recommend three books to you to read in order to get a perspective on our background in this society and this country in general that is not euro-influenced or biased..

Because it seems that you are combining & confusing our historical experiences in this country regarding men and and yt women and their issues with their men.

Black Women in White America; A documentary history
This gives many 1st person documented accounts from slavery to womanhood
Time spans from 1811-1971

Women, Culture and Politics; Angela Davis
Women, Race & Class; Angela Davis

This should give a significant historical base of our struggle in order to make it easier to understand what is going on......

Because I assure you what my female relatives have had to give up are none of the things that you mentioned...