WHO ARE ELDERS? Per A.Ephirim-Donkor

[Baba Ahmed]

Greetings, peace Power...
I've been moved to pen this. Its intended for a few of our yunguns and anyone else who's interested in info re elders and to myself who aspires to be an honored ancestor. B4 tho I write a libation posted for us by our earnest student and teacher Ifasehun; posted July 2004. He, may he be thanked as I do, gave us the libation in Twi and English; I do the same; I'd done this b4 sit'n here adding some words and names:

"Odomankoma nsa; Asase Yaa nsa; Nsaman pa nsa, Yeda mo ase. So moma yen nkwa, mma Ahonya, odo ne ahoto monso yen mu daa daa Nanso onipa busuyefo hara a. Ope se ade bone ba hen so no, Nsoman pa yetwat no gu koran Saa onipa yi adi nkogu koraa!

"Almighty Everlasting GOD, we invoke your name, Mother Earth who was created on Thursday, we invoke your name. Our venerable ancestors we are grateful to you for granting us health, children, wealth, love and peace. We pray that you continue to protect us all. But anyone who has evil thoughts against us in this family; the one who wishes that misfortunes happen to us, we pray that the person is completely overpowered!" Ashay! Ashay! Ashay-ooo!!!
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Notice here that Ifasehun omitted the names; I take that to indicate that we can fill in the spaces, so to speak. Something some say is grace, kindness coming from GOD. For he could've easily typed a name used by Yoruban adherents that may have led some to bleeve he's imposing his way on us. But he didn't do that; nor will I.

The point here in this post is that the gap btween elders and youth is evident. I mean btween Afrikan centered elders and our youth in general, many who have little knowledge of Afrikan cultural mores; and so when speaking out to an elder lacks proper training. Often I've spoken to one glaring lack among many of our 1960's valiant movement sistas and bruthas: intragroup morals and ethics. The two go together as one. How often growing up, did I hear said to someone else and or me: boy! speak when u're spoken to, in the presence of elders. So when I was admonished the other day, note that I merely responded, "Objection noted." As I refrained from lashing back: be quiet! Hush!!! Til u are directly addressed. But I suspected ego was involved and didn't bother to mention that there is a better way to admonish an elder. Tho technically speaking I do not consider myself an elder, except in age and some wide experiences. Another way? Example: Jacuma once sent me a PM and kindly implied an error in my poor choice of words; plus he offered info not on the open board. I dug it and changed both my wordings but also sent email apology to the person explaining how I could/can help. See, I know I've got to tighten up my case. And for others I'll quote some notes from a brutha, I do not know but regard highly for after Pastoring groups of Afrikan Christians born in Amerikkka, he returned to his Akan ways. And wrote a book: African Spirituality: On Becoming Ancestors. His name: Anthony Ephirim-Donkor, another Amerikkkan base Afrikan. Selected excerpts from his chapter, The Elders follow. The candles are lit 'n lights bright; remember if a shoe fits, wear it; it pinches? stretch it or go barefeet and keep step'n. Here I'm not defending, justifying or arguing; but I do say that there's lack of knowledge among many of us re what Muslims call Adab and the old folks call "Home Training." But here its not sent to Jews, Hebrews, Christians,Muslims, Socialists or Agnostics - but to Afrikans b/c allathat came out of Afrika!

"Who are the elders? One response is that Nana Nyame (God) and the Bosom are the ultimate elders by virtue of both being addressed as nana. As the Bosom makes its monthly cyclical appearances, it renews creation by instilling life and hope in humanity while assuming upon itself the curses, misfortunes, and evils of humanity. Then it dies with them. To ensure the continued survival of humanity the resurrected Bosom brings along new life and blessings in the exuberance of food, and in a reciprocal gesture humanity praises the crescent Nana, the Bosom. So the conferral of nana on anyone not only means that the individual embodies the essential nature of God and the Bosom, but has actually achieved perfection and is worthy of praises and whorship. This is exactly the way the Akan perceive their kings to be: divine beings who require the ultimate praise, worship and sacrifice.

"To be an elder the individual must be chosen by his or her matrikin folks. This leader is referred to as Ebusua panyin (eldest or head of the matrikin folks). The process begins when older members of that lineage select their candidate and pour a libation (tsir mpai) to the same council of elders who chose him in the governance of his lineage. Together with other lineage heads and sub-kings of a village or town, they constitute the king's council.

"Furthermore there are immigrants who are chosen elders and form part of the council of elders. These may be individuals who have exemplified leadership qualities and have excelled in oratory and wisdom, and in recognition are made elders. These positions may become hereditary. Occasionally, the descendants of these immigrants might contest the kinship. This might be the only time that the descedants may be reminded that their ancestors were immigrants or even slaves.

[indent]"There is yet another group of elders. These may be foreigneres or philanthropists who have made significant contributions to the development of a community. In recognition of their generosities, these individuals are accorded such honorific titles as 'sub-kings' or 'militia captains." (asafohenfo) All these positions are for life unless an elder chooses to give it up when the appropriate rites are performed. The salient point to remember is that not everyone who bears the title nana is an elder, but every elder is a nana."
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Baba note: earlier in this chpt it was noted that, "The social and political imperative of this educational stage cannot be overemphasized in an oral society.... In addition to cognitive development, children learn the practicial side to life by observing and mimicking their parents. Here, the child who is obedient and humble may find favor not only in the sight of his or her teachers but in that of other friends of his or her primary teachers. This means that the child will have the benefit of being taught the esoterica of whatever profession is being studied ahead other, disobedient children... ehtical existence and generativity is possible with or without the educational stage, but, without it the kind of ehtic one would learn would probaly lead to delinquency. The rationale behind the educational stage is that one grows up to lead a good ethical life. Even where every effort is put into educating a child, the capriciousness of life is such that one may still end up far short of an ideal life. But with the proper education there is at least the possibilty of success in the face of adversity.

"The possibility of another chance is allowed in the nature of ethical existence and generativity as a reflexive stage. Moral and ethical reflection is impossible without antecendent experiences. This is why relection at this stage takes place during the second half of ethical existence and generativity, a stage generally commensurate with eldership. At the onset young adults may be incapable of any serious reflextion because they are too busy trying to find their niche in society.... The pedagogical nature of the educational stage includes encouraging attention or curiosity in the youth to enable them to engage in youthful reflection. Moreover, from infancy to wisdom the individual should have led an ideal life ultimately ushering him or her into eldership."

[Sun Ship]

Brother Baba Ahmed, we must’ve cruised through the same wave length…I was just thinking about posting this same question and see what responses I would be from the young students and warriors.

Brother, I don’t know if it’s the way you formatted your post or what, but I have to constantly scroll back and forth to read this post…you may want to repost it or somethin'. I'll probably just copy it and paste in Word and read it.

Peace

[Baba Ahmed]

Oh yeah I did a lil flip flop'n with the order; below the broken lines actually comes first; everything else is in correct order with me, just omitting certain passages. Other than that there's no need to go back and forth.

I did that b/c the brutha Ephirim-Donkor frames his book as a rebuttal to some European supposed understandings that he cites... I didn't want to be bothered with that; and really as with all quotes I cite, my hope is for readers to buy the book. The long excerpts I post are usually with the author's permission, as long as like Mama Marimba said: giv me proper credit! I think she knew there was no need to say that; but I follow strictly an inner push to credit those whose voices are clearer and more proven than my own.

Yep we be travelling similar routes, guided by our ancestoral presences. Right?

[Baba Ahmed]

Sun Ship while I was looking for something I posted a coupla years ago at another forum, I was guided to this, from The Healers, by Ayi Kwei Armah:

'Yes,' Damfo said. 'It's not enough for the one who would be a healer to have a healer's nature. Beyond that he needs training, preparation.

'Is it hard?'

'Infinitely so.'

'What does it consist of?'

'We don't talk about it just to talk,' said Damfo evenly. 'The only people who need to discuss a healer's training are those actually undergoing it.'

'What makes it hard?'

'Many things. For one thing, the healer devotes himself to inspiration. He also lives against manipulation.'

"I think I understand inspiration," Densu said. But manipulation?"

'Its a disease, a popular one. It comes from spiritual blindness. If I'm not spiritually blind, I see your spirit. I speak to it if I want to invite you to do something with me. If your spirit agrees it moves your body and your body acts. That's inspiration. But if I'm blind to your spirit I see only your body. Then if I want your to do something for me I force or trick your body into doing it even against your spirit's direction. That's manipulation. Manipulation steals a person's body from his spirit, cuts the body off from its own spirit's direction. The healer is a lifelong enemy of all manipulation. The healer's method is inspiration."

• (1978, pp. 80-81)

Just a lil sumptin in passing

[Sun Ship]

Brother Baba Ahmed, there is so much to say, about eldership…we have so many problems because the circle is broken. And there are those deceivers who know, our youth are distracted by “the lie� and even sometimes, their own since of importance, such as cultural and intellectual arrogance, lacking wisdom and discernment… a sort of Hip type of ignorance (the old folks use to say too much “smelling your own piss�). As you know, even a “little bit of knowledge can be dangerous�. But this is a long subject in it self…

Your second post, concerning The Healer…brother is a beautiful and inspiring teaching. In a way, I was just dealing with this same thing…I was in a discussion about the use and power of melanin…trying to get a brother to see that the melanin alone, though a powerful physiological dimension, is not enough. It’s about what you bring to it, that makes this transducer so significant. But like I said …a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous!!

Ase! (Ashe)

Brother Sun Ship:cool:

[Baba Ahmed]

Greetings Sun Ship

how true, when the bruthas and sistas name the Republic of New Afrika... its real. Not spanking new, I like to say re-New(d) Afrikans

Dr. Finch helped us one day; he said see yourselves as planting seeds...

[Sun Ship]

Brother Ahmed, if you go back to just the 1950’s and even before, you’ll find brothers in the jazz community wearing naturals, playing with African/Afro-Cuban drummers (even Bata drummers), practicing metaphysics and astral planning and so forth. Alice Coltrane introduced John Coltrane to East Indian religion and she has been a practicing Guru for decades.

An African technique of teaching drums by calling one hand “mama� and the other hand “papa� is still practiced among some Jazz drummers who instruct their students till this day. (First documented in the U.S. in the 1920’s, from an interview with Black jazz drummer “Baby� Dobbs)

I remember the famous story of master singer and chanter Leon Thomas…of how he started practicing South African yodeling, after injuring his mouth accidentally, while practicing Yoga with, I believe either Pharaoh Sanders or Yusef Lateef.

Most of what I’ve said, goes back to the 1950’s and easily before.

Brother Ahmed, so many think that what they know and are doing started yesterday, with their own revelations of knowledge. So many of our African ancestors who carried our complex story, right here in America, have been dismissed or ignored by some of the most African centered and culturally astute among us.

Though I said the circle has been broken, there has always been an underground continuity that is sometimes not considered by those radicals who believe they are the “true� disciples of underground culture and thought _lol. And it is hidden because nobody cares or knows, especially those who are already “Afro-hip�.

White folks pick up more of what we throw away…than what they have stolen from us. They have received and used our medicine…while we superfluously romanticize about being well…

All counter-culture in America, from the roaring 20’s to the beatnik 50’s and afterwards was born from our presence ... a passive and sometimes secret acculturation of Black culture into the mainstream.

But among our own, you would think that many of our most progressive minds had never lived.

The fact that, when Jazz musicians were asked to perform at the White House in the late 40’s, Lester “Prez� Young refused to shake president Roosevelt’s hand, in front of everybody and told him why, to his face!… basically Prez, didn’t approve of the governments harassing and incarceration of Billie Holiday. He called him “ivy jivey�__lolol This was a radical “Kodak� moment _lol_ that is rarely ever talked about, in our historical salutes to those who stood against oppression. Many don’t know that Lester was credited as sort of the father of absolute coolness and modern street slang…that was spread around, when these brothers (jazz musicians) were highly respected in our grassroot community.

From Congo Square to Bebop and beyond…Just talkin' about it....


Peace

[Sun Ship]

Brother I had to quickly say I apologize, if I seem to have somewhat digressed from your original subject…you just made me think about what happens with ancestral knowledge when elders are not properly identified, properly understood or marginalized. There is no effective warrior class with without effective eldership… Sometimes I think that is forgotten.

Peace out

[TyreeA]

Peace to all.

I have a few thoughts on this subject.

* The terms Youth and Elder are relative. To my Elders Baba Ahmed and Queen Rebel, I am a youth. To others, I am Mama Tyree. It depends on to whom you are relating.

*Everything that has life on the planet deserves respect.

*I don't believe there is a "real" Elder/Youth problem in our community. I believe some use this to cover their "personal agendas". I have seen people create dissention between so-called "conscious" adults using the so-called Youth/Elder argument to create dissension between people who would and could if left to their own would work well together.

I ask my esteemed Elders and my Dear Lil Brothers and Sisters to find a way to bridge the gap that some will use to create dissension between us.

Recently in a discussion on this same topic, I suggested Elders take Youth and create a Mentor relationship. I have done this many times and I find the best way to do it is to bond with the one you are in the Mentor/Mentee relationship with.

Now, if you are real with each other, not every convo will be easy. There will be days you don’t click at all. There will be days you seem to be at odds. But because you have bonded, you will know you are a team and there is no I nor U in team, and will work with each other to smooth the rugged spots.

Peace Peace!

"The ends you serve that are selfish will take you no further than yourself; but the ends you serve that are for all, in common, will take you even into eternity."

- The Right Excellent Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey

[Nandii]

Originally Posted by TyreeA

Peace to all.

I have a few thoughts on this subject.

* The terms Youth and Elder are relative. To my Elders Baba Ahmed and Queen Rebel, I am a youth. To others, I am Mama Tyree. It depends on to whom you are relating.

*Everything that has life on the planet deserves respect.

*I don't believe there is a "real" Elder/Youth problem in our community. I believe some use this to cover their "personal agendas". I have seen people create dissention between so-called "conscious" adults using the so-called Youth/Elder argument to create dissension between people who would and could if left to their own would work well together.

I ask my esteemed Elders and my Dear Lil Brothers and Sisters to find a way to bridge the gap that some will use to create dissension between us.

Recently in a discussion on this same topic, I suggested Elders take Youth and create a Mentor relationship. I have done this many times and I find the best way to do it is to bond with the one you are in the Mentor/Mentee relationship with.

Now, if you are real with each other, not every convo will be easy. There will be days you don’t click at all. There will be days you seem to be at odds. But because you have bonded, you will know you are a team and there is no I nor U in team, and will work with each other to smooth the rugged spots.

Peace Peace!

"The ends you serve that are selfish will take you no further than yourself; but the ends you serve that are for all, in common, will take you even into eternity."

- The Right Excellent Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey

Beautifully said my Sistah...I agree wholeheartedly...that mentoring program was an excellent idea!

Peace! *smiling*

[Baba Ahmed]

I'm usually in agreement with TyreeA - but elder and youth are not relative terms; i.e., change with location and time. However if y'all wanna see it that way, be my guest.

In America there is no stable culture, except EuroCentric thought and behavior, most others are do n their thing, unwittingly.

I'm speaking from an Ancient, Traditional Afrikan and used to be among our Amerikkkan elders too; but do yo' thing. We don't wanna get hung in semantics. A problem with learning and tryna live a stable and grounded culture other than Euro one is culture provides rules etc. Its clear generally that we follow the rules, regulations and laws imposed by this society... in fact many groups are taught to obey the laws here. Of course this discounts what earlier krakkkas ruled from their highest courts: we have no law they're bound to respect. Yet we bend over backwards to follow their ways. One of which is to have shifting definitions of what is. I'm sure we've all heard it said, as soon as Black folk learn whatever, the rules change.

I dare not oppose what our Honorable Marcus Garvey taught; but I see no relationship to the area of Elders and the say'n quoted. Tho he probably more than any one man has done to introduce us to Afrika's relevance to us. He was not and in fact did not teach Continental Afrikan Cultures. He did aiight with what he had. He took the white man's Bible and did quite well with it.

In fact we'd be hard pressed to name one Black Nationalist of old who knew and taught his or her followers an Afrikan culture. Such knowledge was not generally available. The 1960's saw a fairly wide spread teaching of Afrikan Cultures; at least their trappings. But this is another stage in Afrikan b n fully embraced. I'm not go n to push this reality we call Elders. When its learned it becomes clear that it involves much more than a title. Just like the terms Queen, King, God & Goddesses do. But again this is America and such be the case; anybody can choose to use any term anyway he or she chooses. For is this not the land of Free Speech?

Peace my sistahs

[Baba Ahmed]

Oh an Nandii, many of today's learned reject the term mentor. I won't go into it here, unless its needed. Do a lil research into it. Folk b jumping up and down about the word nigga, not y'all jess saying, dem need to really peep into the word mentor and its derivative.

[Baba Ahmed]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Brother I had to quickly say I apologize, if I seem to have somewhat digressed from your original subject…you just made me think about what happens with ancestral knowledge when elders are not properly identified, properly understood or marginalized. There is no effective warrior class with without effective eldership… Sometimes I think that is forgotten.

Peace out

'cuse me!?! digressed - what's dat, when u b dropping it as it flows. No force, so let the good news roll. Ya heah?

There was a commercial once: Say it again Virginia Dare! Well keep saying it BruthaMan; I'll rephrase it

the gap between true elders and the next levels down is evidentally producing head strong misguided youngsters. Who just know that they know what's go n on. And are very quick to tell an elder so.

That's another thing; corruption of a thread - with me, please flow bruhMan flow in the ancestors' flow. No problema. U without saying it demonstrated an elderly function. My 72 year old Zulu partna tells me how they learned as youngsters. They sit around an elder who as a orchestra leader taught ea and all what he knew they needed to know. And helped them to bridge gaps in their limited knowledges, natural lack of experiences and present happenings. That's 2/3 of the circle.

Yes there is and probably always was, in Amerikkka, an underground completion of our circle. When the student is ready teachers will show. But to me, like the power in living moral lives, this necessary link btween babies, elders and the young must be revived and maintained. There's power's completion therein. E.g., in some ways its taught that Grandparents make better care takers for the young because there's too much friction between biological parents and their offspring. And brutha, I bear witness!

But see, the European preaches youthfulness to the masses while constantly reviving his "founding fathers" and before them. Folk be walking on and around his history; invoking them in praising a certain named automobile, e.g., Mazda, Mercury, Ford, Kellog, Roosevelt Highway as here; The Empire State Bldg. Brown Unv., Yale, Harvard; New ENGLAND, New YORK... etc kwk etc. Krakkka ain't crazy, him cunning. Euro/Amerikans keep us in on and at his stories.

Ck it: folk step to me. How ya doing Baba? Me: like an old man does. Them: don't say you're old; that's just a word. I'm like: I dig b n old. They walk away smiling and shaking dem heads; I guess thinking po' old man.
See what I mean? People here want to "look" and pretend they be young forever. So such demonstrated affections mislead the younger folk. They lose sight of what is required to b n an elder. Its like its no big thing; anybody can b it. Wrong!

Look closely at today's youth, meaning from 40 on down, and witness the confusions abounding. Males wanna be females; females wanna b males; some just wanna be human; boys big as men think they be so; men older than dirt show like boys and males; girls built like adult women and fooled into thinking so and we have innumerable children "raising" babies. And most glaringly is today's so-called "rappers." Having lost or rejected their ancestoral "links" they mouthe all kinds of foolishness. The underground ones get little play. So as usual the popular ones lead astray those who know no better. Why? Mainly because, not just this stifling societal pressures, but the relationship btween them and their elders is nil. So they begin on a shaky foundation of their peers. Children leading other children and now more adults.

Yes, who are the elders? In America's 8 categories of human activities? Just who are they. Age is only a natural factor; there's mucho more necessary to qualify as an Afrikan elder. So krakka called Elvis Presley some kinda King. Don't know if that was the first or not; but now there's Kings and Queens of the blues etc. Americans, generally have a media driven habit of over using a term until it loses all relevance of meaning. So is life...

Now this is truly digressing; so? I just hope something useful is in the mix. Like know what u say; and definitely know what u call yourselves; for names have meanings, just as titles do. Some are earned; others are just something to said in a "hip" manner. Sounds good.

BTW I didn't know that about The Prez. Hard to imagine today. Muscians and performers invited to the White House do just that. I do remember tho Eartha Kitt b n orstracized for her comments at the White House. Others dance and sing like dem expected to. So, e.g., a Bill Clinton can do his sax thing, sounding worse than my sons who stopped playing after high school in its Jazz Band.

Namaste Sun Ship (the god in me recognizes the god in u)

[Sun Ship]

Brother Ahmed, I couldn’t have responded or commented to this thread any-mo’-better this mornin’

I read your post and I smiled…I laughed joyously…and I think one of my eyes watered a little__lol. What you have said is full of truth, spirit and from the depths of the soul!

I also have dealt with and wrestled with others about this term, “mentor�… This is one of many terms, we use that are almost impossible to diffuse, because it sounds so noble. Who gave us this term? Sure, it may slip out the mouth of somebody trying to make a point about eldership. But as a principle or African act of collective responsibility, the word has problems and is not a natural part of our philosophy or lexicon. It’s a loaded word…like “role model�. It is an artificial construct, to replace what we should have and what we should be truly developing. I hesitated to comment on its use, until I read your post…like I said…the word is loaded and can explode if refuted.

Brother as hard-headed as I was, as a young man, I was still able to understand these things:

I was taught to seek out the wisdom of my elders.

To sit close and quietly when they spoke, to ask questions with reason, and then try to go home and decipher the wisdom, not quick to refute what I didn’t understand.

I was taught that, eventually I would have to humble myself to the teacher and seek him or her out.

Life was in their mouth…possible death was in their silence.

I tell my own youngin’s, “I live off the wisdom of my once living elders daily and no wisdom that I give them, belongs to me…�

Elders never made the lesson easy and they always demanded my respect…

They refused to placate to me, and my lack of understanding.

Many of them, are my honored ancestors now. But I still try to invoke wisdom from wise old Black men and wise old Black women every chance I get.

And I also, have found much wisdom in fellow Black men, usually wisdom shared to them by their elders or gathered from their particular hardships and triumphs...

It is interesting how so many can seek, find, work for and gravitate to, everything but wisdom.

We seem to invest more into things, than people.

Brother Ahmed… I bear witness…O’ what great wisdom has walked this earth and still do!

[Nandii]

I do agree that a lot of terms are 'milked' and 'sucked' and 'used' and 'milked' again......until they have almost no substance....And what is/was... would/could be the gain?...Is it all that? ....the 'gain' I mean

For something that should be to be gotten naturally.

Folk could stroke themselves until the cows come home couldn't they?

Looks like a pretty comfortable Island (what is that population again?)

RESPECT... already! ... works both ways

Peace