What do you think of propaganda?

[TyreeA]

I gotta say this is a nice thread, good poll

My opine of propaganda is that it's neither good nor bad and of itself, the message and and its' use makes it one way or the other.

NattyReb said something about our organizations should have one arm or sction devoted just to propaganda. I agree 100% with her. I feel the same, and if you look at it in that manner, I guess that's what I do with The AG. Cause I sure am spreading positive African Centered information!

And for that matter, we are all doing it every day we come to this forum and contribute anything, and the Talking Drum Collective does as well!!!

[OsunkoyaIfayomi]

I guess when it comes down to it what was quoted earlier is what matters whether you call it propaganda properganda or ganda the truth of the matter is we are exposing the lies by telling the truth

As Brother Malcolm would say, “just tell the TRUTH and make it plain�

Iba se Honorable Brother Malcolm mo juba

[Sun Ship]

Brother rebelafrika here is a tidbit of information I received off the web defining propaganda...thought it was interesting...I'm going to post some of my own comments later, peace.



…propaganda can be as blatant as a swastika or as subtle as a joke. Its persuasive techniques are regularly applied by politicians, advertisers, journalists, radio personalities, and others who are interested in influencing human behavior. Propagandistic messages can be used to accomplish positive social ends, as in campaigns to reduce drunk driving, but they are also used to win elections and to sell malt liquor.

As Anthony Pratkanis and Elliot Aronson point out, "every day we are bombarded with one persuasive communication after another. These appeals persuade not through the give-and-take of argument and debate, but through the manipulation of symbols and of our most basic human emotions. ….." (Pratkanis and Aronson, 1991)

Propagandists love short-cuts -- particularly those which short-circuit rational thought. They encourage this by agitating emotions, by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending the rules of logic. As history shows, they can be quite successful.

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

But I think this is where I’m concerned. For what a person perceives is everything. And when most people hear that they are being induced by propaganda, they quickly associate it with brain washing and/or Orwellian-type antics.

Yeah bruh. It's a struggle. I'll say this though. When my party puts out propaganda...we call it "propaganda." When the enemy does it, he tries to hide what he is doing. At least when we come at you, you have the advantage of knowing

"ahhhhhhhhhhhhh s***...here comes these guys thats gonna hype up and highlight all the good aspects about Africa!!"

At least you know that we are not gonna come at you with that "n****'s can't do anything" or that "you CAN'T fight against the system" or that "I'm sooooooooooo discouraged (boo hoo hoo)" talk.

Like Kwame Ture would say about socialism..."We're not trying to SNEAK UP ON YOU with it. We tell you from the jump...WE ARE SOCIALISTS"

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Just look at the political associations to the word communism. Today, many African socialist have distant themselves from this term and its modern theoretical doctrines. Matter of fact, as many New African disciples are trying to research and reinvigorate the philosophical and applicable constructs of African communal living, some have even distant themselves from the social-scientific term and political definition of socialism. Now embracing the concept of African Communalism.

For people who want to go back to communalism...I have no critcism. I simply wish them good luck.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

All of these terms are harmless and at their theoretical root and have basically the same semantical connotations, but because a draconian approach to theoretical communism especially, was historically embraced by so many tyrannical rulers and was originally flawed by the doctrinal deracination of spirituality, it is now, not very useful as a social or political idea for New Africans, along with the perception of the word.

This is not as much as a comment as it is a statement. Kwame Ture showed us that the collapse of the soviet union was also the collapse of the argument that Marxism-Leninism was the ONLY revolutionary ideology. MOST (pay attention to the word..."MOST") MOST Marxists-Leninists do not even really understand Marxism-Leninism...and as a result, THEY ARE THE ONES responcible for the misconceptions associated with socialism-communism. How did we get from propaganda to this? Don't answer...I was just asking "rhetorically". Also, I see that you come out of the whole "New Afrikan" network. Are you a part of an organization?

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Remember, in a true and non-romantic view of ancient Africa, many great kingdoms were sometimes in part, theocratic, imperialistic and monarchies, but in today’s understanding of these systems and terms, most find these types of governments unacceptable. I have heard many African thinkers talk about reconstituting African-centered cultural living, but rarely have I heard them discussing reviving the institutionalization of chiefdoms and kingships

Yeah...I hear what you are saying. I say two things. I say that in "essence"...all oppression is wrong. I also say that in "form", I see a distinction between the kind of theocracies, imperialism and monarchies of Africa and the kind of theocracies, imperialism and monarchies practiced by others. Again, because I KNOW "somebody" is going to miss a point in here somewhere...I say that in "essence"...ALL OPPRESSION IS WRONG. I also say that in "form", I see a DISTINCTION between the kind of theocracies, imperialism and monarchies of Africa and the kind of theocracies, imperialism and monarchies practiced by others.

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by TyreeA

I gotta say this is a nice thread, good poll

My opine of propaganda is that it's neither good nor bad and of itself, the message and and its' use makes it one way or the other.

NattyReb said something about our organizations should have one arm or sction devoted just to propaganda. I agree 100% with her. I feel the same, and if you look at it in that manner, I guess that's what I do with The AG. Cause I sure am spreading positive African Centered information!

And for that matter, we are all doing it every day we come to this forum and contribute anything, and the Talking Drum Collective does as well!!!

I saw on the news today, two black families (mostly young sisters) fighting outside of a courtroom. The family of a murder victim was fighting the family of the defendant. For a "micro-second" I wondered how this could qualify as "news" on a national level (yeah...I saw it on Fox News). That thought was gone almost as fast as I thought it. It's propaganda against black people. SO WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE AG? The enemy has his job to do, and we have ours. Keep up the good work sis.!

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by Kwaku Bendele

I guess when it comes down to it what was quoted earlier is what matters whether you call it propaganda properganda or ganda the truth of the matter is we are exposing the lies by telling the truth

There is no rule that says that we have to call a sandwhich a "sandwhich." We can call them "meaty bread sticks" if we want. We can call them "whatever." The truth of the matter is that if you eat enough of them, you will get full. You might even get some nourishment. It doesn't really matter what we call them, except for the fact that we make it matter...you understand what I am trying to say?

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Brother rebelafrika here is a tidbit of information I received off the web defining propaganda...thought it was interesting...I'm going to post some of my own comments later, peace.

I liked this too...up until the end when it veered off course with the...

...particularly those which short-circuit rational thought.

and the..

...by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending the rules of logic.

I don't believe that's true. Everything else, I can accept.

[OsunkoyaIfayomi]

Make it matter amen

[Sun Ship]

Brother rebelafrika, what you have posted, has brought so many other relative topics to mind, but for the sake of staying focused, I’m going purge my thirst for digression, with trying to dig a little deeper into the original query.

I posted some statements from the web that I thought were embracing both of our points of view. I rather reason with you, rather than propagandize. All I have is experience, to guide my information and understandings of most matters. I think we all are products of conditions and causalities, to some degree or another.

Now I do believe there is effectiveness, in driving home a point of view, especially when you are counteracting the lies many African Americans have so naively believed over the years. But I think one of the problems, is the over propagandizing of ideas, without our people developing a rich and real in-depth understanding, through study, as it refers to the overall process and application of social change. The last time I heard Brother Kwame Ture speak, he made reference to, how he believed the West coast movement of the Black Panthers, that was so popularly recognized, was sometimes (and I emphasize sometimes) too slogan and rhetorically oriented and that the focus on study and the intellectual understanding of progressive radicalism, was not properly or maybe thoroughly communicated to the African American masses. Propaganda without concrete apolitical ideas or direct infrastructural applications is sort of ungrounded.

When I spoke of African communalism, you seem to give it your blessing, but I wonder if you see it as something different, than what socialism is trying to produce? If you remove privatization and unbridled capitalism in our community, than what do you espouse we replace it with? Though propaganda may be motivating, it doesn’t always explain how the mechanisms of change or the lack thereof affects our daily lives. So many African Americans, who have been motivated by the style and hyperbole of various charismatic African-centrists, have naively turned their enthusiasm into just more style and hyperbole. The day for “knee-jerk� revolutionary slogans has to come to an end and propagandizing a social science without direct applications to everyday living, usually never gets past the surface. Like we both know, “ just as an army moves on beans and not bullets�. A nation is built on skills, hammers, and nails along with trowels, hoes and bricks.

Originally Posted by rebelafrika

]
Also, I see that you come out of the whole "New Afrikan" network. Are you a part of an organization?

Brother I never knew there was a “New Afrikan� network, so I doubt if I came from it. I used the term to suggest renewal and innovation, which is more than just defining myself on an ongoing socio-cultural presence of artifactual Africanisms or the replication of continental African culture. I always tell many younger warriors, that some of the ideas and terms they embrace have been used for a while. African-centered living is as old as dirt, before there was an academic standard set forth based in an ideological construct.

As far as organization, I am not in any structured organization as such, but since 99.9% of my work, is in the Black community, with members of my community and I don’t think none of it could be achieved without an organized effort. But, besides that, I am looking into something much more structured, in a sense.


Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

I posted some statements from the web that I thought were embracing both of our points of view.

The statements DO embrace both our points of view for the most part. Look at the percentage of what I agree with to what I don't agree with.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

I rather reason with you, rather than propagandize.

This is a part of that statement you posted earlier...

Propagandistic messages can be used to accomplish positive social ends, as in campaigns to reduce drunk driving

When my party puts out propaganda it is only the beginning step to accomplishing a positive social end. Have you heard of that comic strip "Calvin and Hobbs"? Have you seen those images on people's cars that have Lil' Calvin "Pissin' on Ford" or "Pissin' on Chevy" or etc.? We made some shirts with Lil' Calvin but we gave him a fro' and made him an African and he is pissin' on the amerikkkan flag and it says "FUCK THIS RACIST FLAG" on it. You would be surprised at how many people love those shirts (especially the Native American community). That's propaganda...and we want any African who feels the same way about that flag that we do, to join our ranks. Of course...the "reasoning" and the in-dept disccusion comes from people who ask us questions or have comments about the message on the shirt. The "reasoning" and the "struggle over ideas" comes from further inquiry...and for the members of our party it comes with the political education training process (that is permenant...there is no member in our party who has "completed" the training process). I understand the hesitation to pick up the word "propaganda"...believe me, I do. Many of my comrades can tell you how defensive and uneasy I was at the idea of us using "propaganda" when I first came around...because I had been propagandized to veiw propaganda as a negative thing since Jr. High (this is also close to the time that I had a history teacher slander Marcus Garvey which skewed my perception on Garvey for along time). If you do not do any propaganda, or if you prefer to "reason" with people instead...I ain't mad at'cha.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

When I spoke of African communalism, you seem to give it your blessing, but I wonder if you see it as something different, than what socialism is trying to produce?

Yes, I do see a difference in communalism and socialism. Do you see them as the same? My observance has been that "what" they are trying to produce is the same...but "how" they go about producing is what's different.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

If you remove privatization and unbridled capitalism in our community, than what do you espouse we replace it with?

In order to get capitalism out of our community, we need to get it out of our nation (otherwise, it's like we have a hole in the boat and we are scooping the water out with a cup). Where is the African community and where is the African nation? The African community is EVERYWHERE ON EARTH (and BEYOND?). The African nation is AFRICA. In order to get capitalism out of our nation (so that we can have capitalism out of our communities), we have to have a nation in the CONCRETE, not a nation in the ABSTRACT. What do we replace capitalism with? We replace it with it's anti-thesis, which is socialism. I know you may not agree, but I just want you to understand the logic.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Though propaganda may be motivating, it doesn’t always explain how the mechanisms of change or the lack thereof affects our daily lives. So many African Americans, who have been motivated by the style and hyperbole of various charismatic African-centrists, have naively turned their enthusiasm into just more style and hyperbole. The day for “knee-jerk� revolutionary slogans has to come to an end and propagandizing a social science without direct applications to everyday living, usually never gets past the surface. Like we both know, “ just as an army moves on beans and not bullets�. A nation is built on skills, hammers, and nails along with trowels, hoes and bricks.

I agree...and I think I've already covered most of this matter in the paragraph where I talk about propaganda only being a beginning step. I would even go as far as to say propaganda NEVER gets past the surface level...unless it is associated with a vehicle able to carry people beyond the surface level. amerikkkan propaganda is fortified by amerikkkan imperialism. Pan-Africanist propaganda is fortified by the African Liberation struggle and all those organizations involved.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Brother I never knew there was a “New Afrikan� network, so I doubt if I came from it. I used the term to suggest renewal and innovation, which is more than just defining myself on an ongoing socio-cultural presence of artifactual Africanisms or the replication of continental African culture. I always tell many younger warriors, that some of the ideas and terms they embrace have been used for a while. African-centered living is as old as dirt, before there was an academic standard set forth based in an ideological construct.

Have you heard of the Republic of New Afrika? Or the New Afrikan People's Organization? Or the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement? I'm sure I am missing at "least" one more organization (there could be more) but this network of organizations are responcible for creating and popularizing the concept of the "New Afrikan" and the line you are running sounds like their line (by "line" I am not infering anything negative). Don't take my word for it...look it up. I thought that maybe you was a member of one of these organizations and was intentionally running their line.

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

As far as organization, I am not in any structured organization as such, but since 99.9% of my work, is in the Black community, with members of my community and I don’t think none of it could be achieved without an organized effort. But, besides that, I am looking into something much more structured, in a sense.


Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

Well you are in the right place to find something much more structured. I've got comrades from all kinds of organizations, so if you think I can be of any assistance to you, feel free to hit me up. And don't be surprised if I end up hitting you up for some questions or advice either.

[OKULAJA]

Your boy Webster defines Propaganda:

2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause

From the Root, Propagate:

3 a : to cause to spread out and affect a greater number or greater area : EXTEND b : to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (as an idea or belief)

So Propaganda is just the tool, its the cause or idea that is to be questioned as good or bad. I can take a hammer and murder people with it or take the same hammer and build a house for those same people.

[DarkManJah]

i agree with all who see propaganda as a positive in liberation struggle. It all depends on one's mission, either to enslave or liberate.

i also agree with Marimba Ani, whose book Yurugu is MY "bible" (something i tell christians who ask me why i don't read THEIR bible).

It's good 2 c others read Chomsky. i started reading his works after Haki Madhubuti insisted Warriorscholars should. Or waz it after i saw him and Kathleen Cleaver together on C-SPAN back in 95? i forget now. so long a-go

i did not know about Malcolm's conscious recognition of the propagandistic nature of his speeches... That poster was an awakening in and of itself, for those present, i wager!

Holla. Hotep.

[Sun Ship]

Brother DarkManJah, Sister Marimba Ani’s YURUGU is so powerful I gave away at least 10 copies. And I did this on a meager income. __ After having our minds raped and sodomized by the racist deviants of European imperialism, this book is like making love to the Black mind and soul. I say this respectfully about this warrior-sister’s scholarship, “truth is almost erotic�.



Brother rebelafrika, as I was saying before, I am not fighting against your pronouncements about propaganda or the objectivity of its definition. True, it is just a tool, but I’m dealing with a historical analysis of our struggle. We have been given an arduous task by our ancestors, of assessing and critiquing the progression of our people and the responsibility to alter or re-orchestrate the tactics of liberation. When we talk about blessed Brother Malcolm, we must not extricate him from the times in which he lived. As the honorable Elijah Muhammad taught him, “ he educated and articulated change in the context of our understanding�.

A good example of the superfluity of propaganda is the very popular t-shirt of Brother Malcolm with a AK-47 looking out the window, subtitled with an excerpt from one of his speeches…the quote, “BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY�; though effective in a emotional sense, this quote was not related to the “true� historical nature of that picture and didn’t necessarily invoke any further forms of Black nationalism or a deeper understanding of nationalism, in general.

It is necessary for those who call themselves revolutionaries to show, at some times, the evidence of revolving change, in politics, tactics and lifestyle. It is, timeout for revolutionary nostalgia and African cultural romanticism. At some point, there must be some type of tangible physicality to social science, in real-time. A philosophical or applicable knowledge that is functional and usable. If social scientist have no immediate strategies or results, then in time, they will unknowingly be in danger of simulating the never reachable mysticisms displayed in most religions.

As far as the effect of propagandizing, Black Lil’ Calvin "pissing" iconography is doing for revolutionary change…I’ll leave that for some of the younger brothers to decipher.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

[rebelAfrika]

Originally Posted by Sun Ship

Brother rebelafrika, as I was saying before, I am not fighting against your pronouncements about propaganda or the objectivity of its definition. True, it is just a tool, but I’m dealing with a historical analysis of our struggle. We have been given an arduous task by our ancestors, of assessing and critiquing the progression of our people and the responsibility to alter or re-orchestrate the tactics of liberation. When we talk about blessed Brother Malcolm, we must not extricate him from the times in which he lived. As the honorable Elijah Muhammad taught him, “ he educated and articulated change in the context of our understanding�.

A good example of the superfluity of propaganda is the very popular t-shirt of Brother Malcolm with a AK-47 looking out the window, subtitled with an excerpt from one of his speeches…the quote, “BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY�; though effective in a emotional sense, this quote was not related to the “true� historical nature of that picture and didn’t necessarily invoke any further forms of Black nationalism or a deeper understanding of nationalism, in general.

It is necessary for those who call themselves revolutionaries to show, at some times, the evidence of revolving change, in politics, tactics and lifestyle. It is, timeout for revolutionary nostalgia and African cultural romanticism. At some point, there must be some type of tangible physicality to social science, in real-time. A philosophical or applicable knowledge that is functional and usable. If social scientist have no immediate strategies or results, then in time, they will unknowingly be in danger of simulating the never reachable mysticisms displayed in most religions.

As far as the effect of propagandizing, Black Lil’ Calvin "pissing" iconography is doing for revolutionary change…I’ll leave that for some of the younger brothers to decipher.

Peace,

Brother Sun :cool:

Ohhhhhhhhhhh...now I get it. I think that you think that I am saying that propaganda is the "end all be all" or that propaganda represents something complete within itself. I am not arguing how effective propaganda is or the degree to which it is effective. This thread was about the "ethical" question of propaganda. "Ethically" can we value propaganda as something good? Something bad? Or something else? I am saying that propaganda is subjective. It is not inherently good or bad. You are making an entirely different argument.

[Amatsyah Tel Dan]

with the risk of being cynical
the declaration of independence and the bible are the single most effcetive works propaganda
both have been used to manipulate and neutralize opposition

we should have a propaganda mechanism
with all the information on this site

dissemination to the general african in american public would work, i think