Are whites in Afrikan Spiritual Systems Culture Bandits/Infiltrators?

[Tehuti-4]

Originally Posted by Nia Maishani

Peaceful greetings Brother King Warrior Tehuti-4,

I do appreciate your attention to this subject, so medase pa. I want to ask however, are the "small numbers" who may have learned or who may learn in the present or future really worth the effort? Is it a significant number? Obviously not if no difference has been made to date overall in their approach to all other peoples globally. Also, what is your take on the admonition from Afrikan priests of antiquity to refrain from association with the ogo?

Peace sistar,

Is it worth the effort? Whether an effort should even be made at this time is a question for God? The approach that they have "to all other peoples globally" is a reflection of the ability of a tiny few to use their knowledge in manipulating the uninitiated into doing their bidding for them. Sever this connection and really WHAT could these few sinister men do? NOTHING.

Yet, we are also not functioning in global terrorizing & genocidal extermination of one another either.

No but we are among their puppets doing so just as whites are their puppets as well.

Point not at the puppet, but at the puppetmaster.

Understood, and just as I pointed out to Ajaguna it cannot be just to proscribe or lump the manipulated with the manipulators.

I've had some of the worst mates known to man, I suspect. But it's no contest between them & ogo. I'll take the former any day, medase pa.

I hear you on the mates Queen. However, although there are quite a few people who I know who arrived in ATR due to their struggle with THE SYSTEM there are just as many who come with just everyday personal struggles without any great knowledge of politics or revolution.

I think we can accept what happens, but at the same time take consistent action to combat it and prevent it from destroying us.

Being at peace gives us access to the power to change situations. The ability to keep our heart still at the crossroads is at the core of all true spiritual systems. One of the greatest "powers" is access to Divine protection.

[Nia Maishani]

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

Peace Queen Nia,

...Since this is a Sebekian exercise in which we instead intellectualize and give our feelings and emotions about a question one can never expect Unity or consensus from such a process unless we are all functioning on the same level of spiritual development. We aren't.

I'm not quite sure why we would need to all function on the same level of spiritual development in order to come to a consensus on what is to be done about our history with them, given two clear-cut options. Share our culture & faith tradition with them? Or not? I think everyone from a black aetheist to an AME to one practicing Ancient Kemetic Sprituality, regardless of how deep or shallow in any one of those beliefs, could really come to a consensus on this, given our sharing of the same historical experience in dealing with ogo.

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

My intellect is informed that I would prefer to live surrounded by people who are at least familiar with Men Ab. The alternative is to surround ones Self with people who are guided solely by the animal within them. Unless there are enough of us (initiated) where we could influence the behavior and events to ensure PEACE then the outcome certainly should be predictable - as in this instance history could guide us in the absence of any Spiritual Intuition. I would like to know what the outcome of an arrangment in which there is this US and them set up. What do we imagine the world will look like? What are the solutions to the dilemas currently facing us?

My solution is separation, unification within our own "race," a highly sophisticated defense system and an oath to never slip up and trust them again. This will look like paradise, I presume. A setup where there is us together and apart from them surely would mean the potential for two immediate outcomes: their extinction, for they cannot get along for long without us, or their continued assault upon us while we try and live privately in peace, at which point we will be left with no alternative but to remove their presence. The only pact or bargain or interaction I want with them is to agree to stay separate and they just leave us be.

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

WE must be more about our culture and spiritual traditions. Our failure to do so will only create the conditions which will move us closer to them. Only the Sahu Wo/Man perceives the world in the left brain segregated fashion in which the world is filled with irreconcilable antagonistic opposites- enemies, disconnected dualities, etc. This is a good definition of the type of Wo/Man that has the world functioning as it currently does. The fully initiated partake of the Supreme Beings powers of Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience - there is no force which can oppose such power and so the contradictions of the uninitiated are exposed for what they are - illusion. All of life is ONE Sistar. This is for some a bitter pill to swallow especially when we have become so comfortable with a stage of development which informs us of the exact opposite.

I agree Brother, that all of life is one, but I don't think that means we are required or expected to allow all energies to move in the same fields or to be combined. Not a bitter pill so much, but I just don't think that holds us to the responsibility of trying in futility to tame the evil forces or to fraternize/sororitize with them.

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

But consider the consequences of an order of the universe which would allow the most awesome forces in the universe to accrue to those who believe in such things as enemies. It cannot happen.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. But I again thank you for expounding on this.

Blessings,

[Ajaguna]

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

Peace,

Once again let me restate that this question must be addressed by means other then the process we are currently undertaking if we want guidance on the subject.

I'm not sure which efforts to teach them you are speaking of especially since at this time we ourselves need to be re-taught and as I said this should be task #1. Travel the continent today...I'm sure you will find it difficult to find authentic traditional African culture - unless you know precisely where to look. If not, expect to see something along the order of what you would find in Chicago or LA in the US i.e. NOT African culture and certainly NOT African spiritual systems. In antiquity we did teach some of them (because we knew and practiced the culture) and small numbers of them did learn. They by and large were hunted into either secrecy or extinction by those threatened by that knowledge. However again we are not functioning like that now. If you proscribe death then be prepared to kill the vast majority of Africans as well as we are not functioning in balance or harmony at this point either. Look at us...no enemy is even required to subjugate us now we have learned quite well to do that to ourselves. Look at Watts, South Side Chicago, South Africa, Dafur, Rwanda. (again do not kill your enemy teach him)

Once you leave the lower spheres of the Tree of Life (7,8 & 9) things get very serious my brother. What we are discussing is the 4th Sphere on the Tree MA'AT. Ma'at is the foundation without which NETER HER/HIMSelf could not even manifest ItSelf in order to Create the Uni-Verse. It is difficult to conceive let alone accept the relationship that we have with those who may be dreaming of our immolation. Prophecy tells us that destroying them is not only not possible but will not achieve the end that the part of our spirit that would seek this envisions. Were Whites created to bring the type of adversity that would lead us back to our spiritual way of life? The Earth itself was created for that purpose - and that includes everything in it and on it. For most of us individually it will not be yt that drives us to spiritual culture it will be our mate LOL!! or our health. As spiritual beings we accept everything that happens to us WE AGREED to before coming here. The only place and time without the challenges of the Earth is the inner planes.

ONE!

Uhuru Bro. Tehuti,

I am aware of and have been witness to many examples, both historically and currently, of the divine sanctioning our nationbuilding efforts, and our taking up of arms against our oppressors. Prior to the arrival of Europeans, there are numerous reports of oracles and deities forewarning us of the consequences of dealing with Yurugu. Our widespread maroonage and guerilla warfare was, to a great extent, at the behest of our divinities. We all know about Haiti. Even today I am aware of messages from deities and spirits of the dead that call for our acknowledgment of the reality of war that we find ourselves in. We are at war. A war that we didn't initiate. A war that we must win. War is consistent with the natural order. Our divinities and ancestors, indeed the Creator have our collective back.

I respect your position on the issue. I can understand your perspective. I do think it is a bit ahistorical. I'm scared that your approach would continue to leave us vulnerable to attack. You're right though. This won't get solved through discussion. I trust that we'll work it out in real life, as a people.

[Tehuti-4]

Originally Posted by Ajaguna

Uhuru Bro. Tehuti,

I am aware of and have been witness to many examples, both historically and currently, of the divine sanctioning our nationbuilding efforts, and our taking up of arms against our oppressors. Prior to the arrival of Europeans, there are numerous reports of oracles and deities forewarning us of the consequences of dealing with Yurugu. Our widespread maroonage and guerilla warfare was, to a great extent, at the behest of our divinities. We all know about Haiti. Even today I am aware of messages from deities and spirits of the dead that call for our acknowledgment of the reality of war that we find ourselves in. We are at war. A war that we didn't initiate. A war that we must win. War is consistent with the natural order. Our divinities and ancestors, indeed the Creator have our collective back.

I respect your position on the issue. I can understand your perspective. I do think it is a bit ahistorical. I'm scared that your approach would continue to leave us vulnerable to attack. You're right though. This won't get solved through discussion. I trust that we'll work it out in real life, as a people.

Hetep,

I don't encourage any move without consultation with the Divine so I am not concerned about doing anything that would leave us "vulnerable". I understand the position of many soldiers here because many articulate positions that were my own not very long ago. But then my view of the world was dominated by a political analysis. Politics alone will present a different perspective then a spiritual view. Many people play lip service to spirituality but don't really understand or appreciate the power that lies in its application even on an elementary level.

There is a single FORCE in this world and each one of us contributes to its energy and vibration. One must consider a figure like Fidel Castro for example and ask how in the world has this man been able to survive the utter hatred, contempt and perhaps innumerable attempts that have been made to kill and remove him from power made by the most powerful and sinister force on this earth today? I mean these people have killed anybody - all over the world but not this old man 90 miles from the Florida coast. The US Marines are ON that tiny island!!! at Guantanamo. That is protection. That is the kind of protection that comes from following and living in accordance with Ma'at.

If we use the spiritual technology of our ancestors there is no force on this earth that can oppose or threaten us. No need to even worry about it warrior. The force I am speaking of CANNOT accrue to the wicked it cannot be made available to those who are out of balance with the Force of Life. Many have gotten their toochy burned off messin with that. You must come correct when you deal with that.

It is our destiny to set this world right - to return the balance of Ma'at and to assume the responsibility of leading and calling the world to our feet to learn the science of life.

Love & respect

[Epitome]

i know very little about african spirituality so i am not gonna say anything about any of the systems but i can definately see a parallel between what certain people on the board are saying (infiltration) and what was documented in Stolen Legacy. When Greeks came in and raped KMT of its Mystery System which was spirituality, economics, politics, education, science so on and so forth. This sounds like the sequel that I myself don't want to see come true. Pretty soon Yoruba, Metu Neter (if I mispell or use the wrong term please correct me) or African Spirituality in general and the claim that is has its origin in Afrika will be discredited by yt and used by them to further their cause while a large portion of Afrikans are still Christian, Muslim Jewish...and still getting nowhere in our struggle. That's my cheap little two cents

HTP

[Belsidus]

Originally Posted by Tehuti-4

If we use the spiritual technology of our ancestors there is no force on this earth that can oppose or threaten us. No need to even worry about it warrior. The force I am speaking of CANNOT accrue to the wicked it cannot be made available to those who are out of balance with the Force of Life. Many have gotten their toochy burned off messin with that. You must come correct when you deal with that.

It is our destiny to set this world right - to return the balance of Ma'at and to assume the responsibility of leading and calling the world to our feet to learn the science of life.

Love & respect

Greetings Bro. Tehuti-4

You made a very powerful statement.

Earlier in this thread you subtitled a post: "Tua en Metu Neter". Correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe you consulted the Metu Neter Oracle before commenting on this thread. The Dieties, of course, would have a different viewpoint on this question, considering they can see things that we cannot. Even someone whose person has advanced to the level of Man Ab would have different viewpoint than the person using Sebekian logic. (Seeing one part of the problem without seeing the entire picture. "Cutting off one head of the Hydra, two growing in its place".)

Great series of posts.

Peace,
Belsidus

[Tehuti-4]

Originally Posted by Belsidus

Greetings Bro. Tehuti-4

You made a very powerful statement.

Earlier in this thread you subtitled a post: "Tua en Metu Neter". Correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe you consulted the Metu Neter Oracle before commenting on this thread. The Dieties, of course, would have a different viewpoint on this question, considering they can see things that we cannot. Even someone whose person has advanced to the level of Man Ab would have different viewpoint than the person using Sebekian logic. (Seeing one part of the problem without seeing the entire picture. "Cutting off one head of the Hydra, two growing in its place".)

Great series of posts.

Peace,
Belsidus

Hetep Atef Belsidus, ( dig your handle)


What I'm trying to get across to my brothers and sisters is that the only thing standing in the way of us and what essentially we all seek IS US. The question being asked here makes some fundemental assumptions that simply are false. The ability to manipulate the forces of the universe can only be understood and used by those who live in accordance with divine law. This is very simply why the evil must rely on "weapons of mass destruction". Their impotence is made obvious here. However, the law is the law it doesn't apply to some because they believe their cause just and not to others. It does not matter how righteous I am can I expect that I will be saved from a broken neck if I step off the roof of a building simply because I am "right" or "good"?
The law just doesn't work this way. Humilty is a difficult attribute beloved for all of us. And you are correct the ultimate humility is too "loose your head" and humble yourself to Divine wisdom. Heru had to loose his eye before he could "see" this TRUTH.

ONE!

[Heru Djet]

Originally Posted by Akyeame Kwame

À«á ñ bá ÷y÷lé «eré, ÷y÷lé ñ yö; ÷y÷lé ñ fikú «eré.

The kite plays with the pigeon and the pigeon rejoices; the pigeon is courting death.

Baba and Mama Akoto tell us in SankOfa Movement that the Abosom warned us of our folly in opportunistically courting the Eurasian. They equate our foolishness to the child who despite being warned is compelled to touch the hot stove. Perhaps we remain unclear regarding who WE are, and by extension who are OUR ENEMIES.

When a warrior was not trained properly and was not guided by the Abosom, he could be a warrior for a dead cause, or a warrior for imaginary concepts that he thinks are real. So many of these warriors have come back, do not recognize the battlefield and so their energy and strength is consumed in the illusions around them.
-NSAA, 1996

[Akyeame Kwame]

Originally Posted by Simba Nerevu

Baba and Mama Akoto tell us in SankOfa Movement that the Abosom warned us of our folly in opportunistically courting the Eurasian. The equate our foolishness to the child who despite being warned is compelled to touch the hot stove. Perhaps we remain unclear regarding who WE are, and by extension who are OUR ENEMIES.

This is the case indeed. Unfortunately, there are far too many of these misguided warriors who refuse to learn the lesson.

AK

[Moorish Rebel]

Originally Posted by IfasehunReincarnated

My complete answer is not represented in the poll. I will have to address the issue in several parts. (What did I have a premonition two days ago that AK was going to post this question? lol)

In any case, I am going to try to provide a historical, spiritual, political and cultural reply, I hope others do the same and keep it holistic:

Is it Wrong?
The short answer is "yes". The complete answer is a combination of many things. First off it’s wrong because we have enough black people polluting Afrikan spiritual systems with their western ways without adding the descendents of slave masters and the husbands and wives of modern imperialists to the mix.

Is it Against Divine Order?
I can't say that it’s against Divine Order other than to remind everyone that Afrikan Priests told us thousands of years ago to not mess with white folks in the first place. OUR ancestors IGNORED these warnings, so collectively whatever they are doing in whatever situation is OUR fault. That is, its Black people's fault because we didn’t listen to the Messages from the Black Gods in the first place. So in that sense it is against Divine Order, but WE are the ones out of order, not them. They are doing what they do, go explore, go take, go use, go change, go run it. They are being Europeans. What are we being?

Secondly, every person that gets initiated into the Priesthoods and even receives shrines of Black Gods sits on the mat and gets a divination reading. The Black Gods say "give my shrine to Billy Bob so he can prosper." or "induct such and such into the Priesthood, it will be good for his health." These white folks are getting readings and then getting instructions from the Black Gods of Afrika. So there is a problem here - some of us will actually divine for a white person. If you don't divine for him, you can't open a situation where you are responsible for his health or his well-being or his family, etc. But if you do.... well, there you go, you end up having to bring him into YOUR home and YOUR spiritual experience and if he doesn’t do right by YOUR culture, it’s all downhill.

If you don’t ask, you are not Obligated
Recently I have been discussing the importance of "how" a question in divination is phrased. Most westerners ask "can I?" not "should I?" and if they started asking "should I?" they might find that they shouldn't do some of the things they do like pretend homosexuality is the personal business of an individual when they know darn well that its a community issue. Or...that they “can, but shouldn't" initiate people who are not of color into our traditions.

But again, once you sit on the mat and you ask, and on top of that you ask the wrong question - you end up with an answer that you might not be able live with. Many many white people get involved in Afrikan spirituality and get shrines and join priesthoods and these activities help THEM, but not US and its because we forgot to ask "should I?" because, and hold your breathe now WE ARE JUST AS WHITE AS THEY ARE IN HOW WE APPROACH OUR CONVERSATIONS WITH THE GODS, so as a result THEY get what they want and we get MORE of what we DONT need.

The problem also is that a lot of people of color that are not are Afrikan are also involved in our traditions, like the few decedents of the Arawak nation in Cuba. These Indians needed our culture because theirs died out. But over time they are less politicized, and as a result they will get it from us and pass it on to Europeans too.

A long time ago a solution was devised and is used today: Some people are asked to take oaths when they receive certain things and that oath prohibits them from passing on those things to people that live certain kinds of lifestyles or that are a danger to true essence of the culture. More people need to do these oaths because once you do - the Gods WILL make them pay in a permanent way when they break them.

They Everywhere Holmes
Now mind you, going back to your question, it’s all mute - there are so many white people running around with these spiritual tools that it’s ridiculous. Only about 30% of Orisa devotees can move around without EVER running into any white folks in the States. That's real. They are everywhere. The question is where do you draw the line in terms YOUR INTERACTION with them when you meet them? Look at the example of Oba Adefunmi and his initiation as your example. He went to Cuba and got what he needed, reclaimed it for his people and kept moving. (I dont want to retell the story and ethnicity breakdown, but do your homework, you will see.)

I just got off the phone with one of the FIRST Black WOMEN born in America to get initiated - a stone cold nationalist. She says the same thing "you cant avoid them entirely, but you can decide what the extent of your relationship will be with them and stay true to your nationalistic roots and not put YOUR culture in harms way."

What's THEIR history as far as Earth-centered Spirituality?
The reality is that white people had their own indigenous traditions that were real and viable , for them . Unfortunately, most of the White people that practiced those systems were murdered or sent into the underground by other white people who represent a stronger, more aggressive and intolerant bunch of you-know-whats. These people heralded in Catholicism and what we see as Judaism... The real pagan traditions of Europe are not really practiced in the States at all. BUT this is what they need to resolve. They need to go back home and get their own stuff and work it, so they can heal themselves and purge themselves of their own ailments, which are plentiful.

The State of Affairs
The fact is they are here. It’s not even an issue of whether they should be, but whether EACH of US will continue to let MORE in. You can put a lock on the door, but its virtually impossible to get every Black and Indian in North, South and Latin America and the Caribbean to all agree to "kick the present euros" out. Why? because once YOU begin working with someone YOU need real cause to bounce them. And you can't tell the Orisa "oh I don’t like their color now" because you knew they color and their history when you began. lol In fact, they will remind you of when you asked "can I?" instead of asking "should I?" and then remind you that 500 years ago you ignored a warning to deal with them on ANY level, much less as spiritual cohorts.

Again our focus ought to be to convince devotees and priests to take personal responsibility for who THEY let in and not worry about what Joe on the other town is doing. White folks are doing them, but we are NOT doing US. We need to be Afrikans that look out for Afrikans first. It’s really easy to do. In fact, I tell Native Americans (which are what I call Indians and indigenous Latinos now) that they need to Native Nationalists and try to resurrect their cultures again, even folks like the Arawaks. Since they have Orisa in their lives anything is possible. Their ancestors will speak through our system and help them revive their culture.

Watch the Source
My last comment is based on that phone conversation I had with the Elder Sister Priest today. I relayed to her that a lot of negroes claiming to be nationalists are nationalists at all. They are head doctors, power trippers, ego maniacs, book worms, armchair revolutionaries and wordsmiths...

These negroes ironically enough do us a disservice because they attend ritual LESS than the white folks, follow tradition LESS than the white folks, spread rumors MORE than the white folks and are quicker to make something up or give themselves a title or some authority MORE than the white folks these days. They will point out a sister or brother, but let a White man walk on by. lol The white Latinos and WASPs (and homosexuals) have KNOWN this and exploited it, making it easy to stop this discussion you are trying to have by simply saying "white people own more agbadas, get along better, speak the language better and get their butts to temple more than half these black folks that are complaining about us." What do I mean to accomplish by sharing this?

If you aint never been to temple, you rarely go to temple, you aint got no shrines, you don’t work your shrines, you don’t speak no languages, you dont try to learn the languages, you don't own no Afrikan clothes (or only wear them to temple), you scared to wear your "beads", wont/don’t know now traditional prayers/songs/incantations, don’t support your elders socially, financially and emotionally, WHO ARE YOU TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE WHITE FOLKS? lol

Some of us cant even follow the worship calendar for the Orisa or the Abosom for a month and there are white folks working their shrines and attending functions and helping elders around the house DAILY on a consistent basis for years at a time. The Gods are holding up a mirror right now. We need to look at US. When we improve on US the white folks will hold neither power nor control over US or OUR traditions. But so long as we have negroes that cant make ebo, wont study divination faithfully, don’t know no ofo ase, dont fellowship with a community regularly, and dont respect their elders, etc.. we don’t have the RIGHT to speak.

A lot of these invaders make US look BAD.....seriously bad. I got stories but I won’t even go into it. I certainly won't go into how many "afrocentric" "pan-afrikan" and "conscious" black people darn near RUN AWAY from the culture, while these white folks LINE UP. Look at the job these crackers pulled on us! They took it, convinced us to hate it, made us take it for granted, then got a helping for themselves.

So I see the answer to your question that is really about white folks as an opportunity to address whats really so wrong w/ us that we keep letting them do what they naturally do (which is mess thangs up) and more importantly how some of US fail to honor, cherish, protect and practice faithfully our spiritual sciences and how the very cracker you are worried about not only does it but does it BIG.

We are.....as usual.... our worse enemy. White people cant topple us. We topple ourselves. Where the nationalists at? Where the spiriualists at? If we could every black nationalist to really start communicating to with their ancestors and the Black Gods of Afrika, we would have BEEN DONE BEEN free..regardless of the how the white folks roll.

(Besides i will go out and say if women are more spirirtually potent than men, than the Afrikan is more spiritually potent than the European..so if we do look at US, we ought to do fine in rectifiying this issue over time.)

Great response Bro. Ifasehan..Your anwsers pretty much sums up my view.

[Majadi]

My wife gets on me about my bitter sarcasm, but anyway!

Aryans and our spiritual systems remind me of dogs wearing sweaters... it is cute at best but really what is the points. These folks have clearly defined their position in the world as destroyers at what point does a harmonious deity come into play? Is it not further clear that divinity and holiness is something that is toyed with and utilized for conquest from their worldview? How much further must we play with this debate? Wholesale slaughter, rape, torture and defilement of spiritual artifacts does not befit the energy of a true GOD/DESS loving people. I say we go after their male murderous god and slit the bastards throat and send him back to the mountains!

I wake up next to the face of creation every morning and her name is Noni. I look into the faces of my children and recognize Afrika, I communicate with my brothers and sisters hear and witness the call of the ancestors to love and war simultaneously. What do I need from the White world?

[IfasehunReincarnated]

SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOURSELF?
I find it incredibly telling that folks will generate 3 pages of dialogue on this subject but are completely silent on such subjects as:

(1) What Afrikan Rituals have YOU attended?
(2) Do you regulary feed YOUR Ancestors?
(3) What Traditional Afrikan Spirituality/Religion do YOU practice?
(4) What Traditional Rites of Passage do YOU observe?

THERE IS ONLY WAY TO PROTECT OUR TRADITIONS, PRACTICE THEM WITH ZEAL
The fact is, if you are actively participating and perserving our Ancestral Cultures who can you even open your mouth to discuss what anyone else is doing. Case in point, Yeye Katherine Dunham just passed away. Every year the Dunham workshop in midwest is PACKED with Europeans. PACKED. Now that she is gone Black are sitting around talking about how to make sure her Mususem and Chlidren's Program House isnt stolen by Europeans. Fine time to ask now. Fine time indeed. Now that the place is in disrepair, and debt and people have to scrabble to pay for her funeral arrangements.

We need not be digusted at Europeans. We should be disgusted with ourselves. Any w/ the nerve to comment on this subject should now get up the nerve to go reclaim and start worshipping the Black Gods of Afrika. Sheer numbers, and real presence is the only way to protect your interests. Anything less is arrogance and contradcition? Correct?[/COLOR]

MANY SPEAK, A FEW TAKE THE STEPS
To the credit of many, I have seen a lot of people here start getting involved for the first time and some others that KNOW they arent really keeping up with their spiritual duties recommit again and start putting in the time. But there are still a lot of people that mill around the Spirituality Forum "intellectualizing" and putting social "politics" instead of Spiritual Intelligence and Spiritual Politics on these discussion. (the difference being one is borne of yourself and the other of the Creator) These people are easily identified because they viritually nothing to say or contribute to dicussions that lead to spiritual practice or spiritual science. Their contributions stem from anger and bitterness, not from a desire to share or generate any level of SPIRITUAL understanding of the world.

Again, Europeans are doing what they are supposed to be doing for us: Holding up the Mirror. What do you see? Do you see an Afrikan that reclaimed a specific Traditional Afrikan Religion/Spirituality, and participates by a specific lineage, or do you see someone that does very little in the way of real commitment. Someone that sporadically makes it the shrines, that sporadically calls on the Ancestors in an Afrikan language. Perhaps someone that cant sing, dance or invoke in ANY Afrikan tradition? Probably wouldnt know how to beseech or feed the Black Gods of Afrika if given a chance??? How can we then be upset when someone else comes along? lol Its like being upset that your neighbor starting cutting your lawn (which you let grow to 4-5 inches a month) and then inventually starting calling his own. He loves your lawn more than you do! And he can't even appreciate it like you can.

INITIATION, PARTICIPATION, ASE AND SO ON AND SO ON...
Also, all humans are born with some and can receive more Ase through rites of passage. The question is a matter of "quality" and "total potential". How much can anyone person amass? What is the quality or character of that Ase? (If it helps to understand the concept, think lemonade. Everyone can make some, but not everyone's is as good as the next guys.) I find it incredibly irresponsible that anyone that hasn't been initiated would even be commenting on who can have and who can build Ase during priestly initiation. It was a conversation I NEVER ventured to have as a devotee or as an observer. Because until you go through the process you have absolutely NO idea what having that kind of Ase even looks like, except through the very LIMITED words of others. And its NOT an experience or concept that can be transferred to you through words. Only experience.

Some will say, how can you see that as a possibility and still maintain that you are a Nationalist. Easy. Because my SPIRITUALITY defines my nationalism, not the other way around. The Head leads the body. Spirit defines reality. I don't care what people "think" they know about Buddhism and Taosim and Hinduism. Those Asians build and use Ase, which in their case is Chi. Native Americans have that as well. EVEN, The ancient pre-christian orders of Paganism built and used their form of European Ase. Is white energy the same as ours? I say no. Can whites amass as much as we can? I say no. But I have witnessed white Ase at work. I have met some white latinos that got it, up and down, square. (The proof is not in our ego, but in the works.) And I know that if they hadn't had it, some of the black nationalist priests that we know, honor and love today wouldnt have any, because MANY white latinos were involved in the initiations of some of the first black nationalists priests! (This is before many of us had the connections to get made in Afrika or get made by someone that had been made in Afrika, or even before there were enough black priests in the diaspora to just made by another Afrikan) So if the latinos have nothing, then we have nothing! And without uttering names I know NO ONE here with any common sense is about to challenge some of our most prestigous elders on whether they have legitimate Ase or Shrines. Their works are their proof. They just used those white latinos to unlock their own internal potential. Plain and simple.

FOCUS ON YOU, NOT THE NEXT MAN
Am I suggesting that white people should practice our traditions? NO, I am not. But, I am at a point in my life where the question is completely mute. The fact is they are already do. My interest is finding and reclaiming those traditions for us. If we focused on establishing strong, self sufficient Black Akan, Vodunsi, Ab'Orisa etc.. it wouldnt matter what "they" are doing. If we focused on only passing on what we have to other Afrikans, that would do a WORLD of differnce. Besides, who among you is going to go into white homes to take their shrines? ......*pauses for effect*...... Exactly....no one. We can't even get 100 Afrikans to go "community police" a crooked cop. (which is MUCH easier) So we know you aint trying to go take an Ogun or Esu shrine from someone.

Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation! Focus on OUR elevation!

This and several other intellectual discussions are "cute" but until we all, as Tehuti-4 suggests, get on the same page (get the same level of spiritual understanding or entrust our Black Nation to elders w/ that understanding) Afrikans will not advance. We will continue to revert to EUROPAN intellectualism and debate to under our condition and culture. Many of the posts in this thread have been EXTREMELY European in nature for that reason.

[Ajaguna]

Originally Posted by IfasehunReincarnated

Also, all humans are born with some and can receive more Ase through rites of passage. The question is a matter of "quality" and "total potential". How much can anyone person amass? What is the quality or character of that Ase? (If it helps to understand the concept, think lemonade. Everyone can make some, but not everyone's is as good as the next guys.) I find it incredibly irresponsible that anyone that hasn't been initiated would even be commenting on who can have and who can build Ase during priestly initiation. It was a conversation I NEVER ventured to have as a devotee or as an observer. Because until you go through the process you have absolutely NO idea what having that kind of Ase even looks like, except through the very LIMITED words of others. And its NOT an experience or concept that can be transferred to you through words. Only experience.


Some will say, how can you see that as a possibility and still maintain that you are a Nationalist. Easy. Because my SPIRITUALITY defines my nationalism, not the other way around. The Head leads the body. Spirit defines reality. I don't care what people "think" they know about Buddhism and Taosim and Hinduism. Those Asians build and use Ase, which in their case is Chi. Native Americans have that as well. EVEN, The ancient pre-christian orders of Paganism built and used their form of European Ase. Is white energy the same as ours? I say no. Can whites amass as much as we can? I say no. But I have witnessed white Ase at work. I have met some white latinos that got it, up and down, square. (The proof is not in our ego, but in the works.) And I know that if they hadn't had it, some of the black nationalist priests that we know, honor and love today wouldnt have any, because MANY white latinos were involved in the initiations of some of the first black nationalists priests! (This is before many of us had the connections to get made in Afrika or get made by someone that had been made in Afrika, or even before there were enough black priests in the diaspora to just made by another Afrikan) So if the latinos have nothing, then we have nothing! And without uttering names I know NO ONE here with any common sense is about to challenge some of our most prestigous elders on whether they have legitimate Ase or Shrines. Their works are their proof. They just used those white latinos to unlock their own internal potential. Plain and simple.

For me the issue is not whether white folks have "Ase" or not. I could care less. The issue is that, as a people, we are not clear about the context of war that we find ourselves in at the present time. The issue is whether we are clear about our historical experiences as it concerns white folk and others. The issue is whether or not we have learned the lessons from our history and current context to be clear about what our mission must be as a people. Our clarity in those arenas would leave no question with regard to letting white folk into our ancestral traditions.

White cubans with Orisa. I'm sure what they have is real. They received it from Afrikans. Again, that is not the point. The point is why they have it in the first place. No, we can't change our history. We can learn from it and thus shape our destiny. White Cubans in America by and large have coopted Lucumi culture and used it to serve their agenda of white power. White Cubans are some of the most serious white supremacists around. But thats no surprise. Their recent ancestors were the bitterest of enemies of Afrikan people. Captors, Traders, orchestrators of White supremacy. That's why they left Cuba in the first place. Cuz Castro,bein' a "little" more liberal than the rest of them, ventured to threaten their domination and control over the majority Afrikan population. We must be clear that it was a mistake for us to give it to "them" and why. And we must be clear regarding the dangers it poses for us to continue giving it to them.

With respect to spirituality defining nationalism, I've reflected a good deal on the subject. My perspective is that for Afrikans the social, political, and spiritual are one. We must shift our paradigm from the European which would have us split reality into pieces and then make those pieces superior or inferior to one another, when in reality the pieces are the same thing. We must understand that the primary function of our "spiritual", "social", and "political" formations is the fulfillment of our individual, familial, communal, and national missions/destinies. Given this reality we must begin to heal these fragments and venture to make them whole again.

My humble opinion.

[Heru Djet]

Originally Posted by Ajaguna

With respect to spirituality defining nationalism, I've reflected a good deal on the subject. My perspective is that for Afrikans the social, political, and spiritual are one. We must shift our paradigm from the European which would have us split reality into pieces and then make those pieces superior or inferior to one another, when in reality the pieces are the same thing. We must understand that the primary function of our "spiritual", "social", and "political" formations is the fulfillment of our individual, familial, communal, and national missions/destinies. Given this reality we must begin to heal these fragments and venture to make them whole again.

Well said. I've always been taught that our spirituality (our culture) is inherently nationalistic. We cannot fully actualize our spiritual traditions without actualizing our sovereignty.

SN

[IfasehunReincarnated]

On all points I am in agreement. What I am illuminating only a few of the people here (yourself being one of them) are actually engaging in this conversation from an informed point of view. How does anyone that doesnt worship the Orisa have an opinion of who does? Its ridiculous and shameful that these crackers will sit on the mat and learn and memorize and then move about the world with OUR stuff and we sit back intellectualizing instead of ritualizing our situation.

How does a bookworm, or a strictly politically minded person have an opinion on this? Isn't that the same as what white folks do, they write books on Afrikan drums and havent a clue what they are saying, they talk about invocation but dont know the science behind it, etc etc. Again, my concern is that this is ONE culture, political, social and spiritual and people need to start viewing their Afrikan selves as such. Don't be disgusted when you see a white boy in agbada and he got initiated to something, ask yourself why you havent done it, since its available and its yours.

Our future is tied to being holistic. Way too many people come to the Spirituality Forum to give political statements. You can make a political statement on something that you dont know anything about. You gotta be a nationalistic spiritualist. Not a nationalist giving commentary on spirituality. I think though my words may get lost in translation, you would be one of those that know the difference and would agree with me.

Originally Posted by Ajaguna

For me the issue is not whether white folks have "Ase" or not. I could care less. The issue is that, as a people, we are not clear about the context of war that we find ourselves in at the present time. The issue is whether we are clear about our historical experiences as it concerns white folk and others. The issue is whether or not we have learned the lessons from our history and current context to be clear about what our mission must be as a people. Our clarity in those arenas would leave no question with regard to letting white folk into our ancestral traditions.

White cubans with Orisa. I'm sure what they have is real. They received it from Afrikans. Again, that is not the point. The point is why they have it in the first place. No, we can't change our history. We can learn from it and thus shape our destiny. White Cubans in America by and large have coopted Lucumi culture and used it to serve their agenda of white power. White Cubans are some of the most serious white supremacists around. But thats no surprise. Their recent ancestors were the bitterest of enemies of Afrikan people. Captors, Traders, orchestrators of White supremacy. That's why they left Cuba in the first place. Cuz Castro,bein' a "little" more liberal than the rest of them, ventured to threaten their domination and control over the majority Afrikan population. We must be clear that it was a mistake for us to give it to "them" and why. And we must be clear regarding the dangers it poses for us to continue giving it to them.

With respect to spirituality defining nationalism, I've reflected a good deal on the subject. My perspective is that for Afrikans the social, political, and spiritual are one. We must shift our paradigm from the European which would have us split reality into pieces and then make those pieces superior or inferior to one another, when in reality the pieces are the same thing. We must understand that the primary function of our "spiritual", "social", and "political" formations is the fulfillment of our individual, familial, communal, and national missions/destinies. Given this reality we must begin to heal these fragments and venture to make them whole again.

My humble opinion.