Is it okay to steal?

[IfasehunReincarnated]

Do the poll THEN provide your replies. Be advised, this question is being posed in the spirituality forum, answers should not be purely political in nature.

[QueenWarriorNefertari]

For me, I said No because I am a strong believer in Karma. Whatever I put out to the Universe, same energy coming back to me (I think thats how it works). I don't want to be taken from (or really I'm thinking of my future babies and loved ones catching that energy in return) so I don't take from others.

At the same time, I completely understand folks doing what needs doing to survive, man. Having been in some of the dire straits I've been in, I overstand that situation. Though I've yet to steal to get needs, not even food & water. As long as noone gets hurt, I'm cool. Not my place to judge anyways.

[Empress_Dahiyya]

I agree with Queen. If you steal or do anything for revenge, u fulfill that person's Karma, but you then have to answer to your own. Its the act, with the intention that i the "go 'round"

Empress

[IfasehunReincarnated]

When I was young I used "liberate" things until an elder pulled me aside and told me about how he "liberated" cars, clothes etc. in the 70s that never had anything to do with revolution, just his own personal wants and or needs. He talked about that term being skewed because people wanted to make personal shots against the system they considered unjust. But that those singular shots had nothing to do with liberation of all, so they were in effect just individual emotional outbursts - and thus unethical.

What's interesting is that our grandparents and their grandparents would have rather died than sell drugs, steal or cheat people to get by. Our grandparents would work 3 jobs and go to school before they would lift a pocket or rob a store or push heroine etc. The few that were the exception couldn't brag about it, heck, they couldnt even give that money to their family - nobody wanted it. It was dirty. Even when it came from people that deserved to be robbed or punished black people just didnt want any part to do with it. We knew that spiritually EVERYTHING has energy attached to it. Why bring that into your home?

My exception would be under dire strait situations like Katrina or the Tsunami or in real war. Where tanks, bullets, massive bodycounts, no public works etc. is evident.

I am concerned with not becoming the devil to survive the devil, if that makes any sense.

[Elisa Keisha]

Exactly, I stopped stealin when I realized I was just doin it for the shake of it and for personal materialistic purposes. If you have nothin against bein materialistic and superficial and dont claim to be fightin against anything... I will say go ahead and get those pants for free, as long as you aint stealing from my neighbour (meaning not a multinational) I wont judge u for that. But in the moment you want to drive yourself away for those type of needs (clothes, etc), stealing makes little sense, coz as Ifasehun said, it clearly doesnt have nothing to do with revolution.

But its funny coz when my grandfather (traditional rural elder of high morals) knew I was stealing the expensive good stuff from the supermarket (ex: good cheese) he just laugh n made a statement about my "smartness". that had me shocked.

thank u for the post. I vote option 4th

[Nia Maishani]

I voted. However, I do subscribe to the belief that we have every right to take back what has been stolen from us. If we are robbed of anything (land, natural resources, wealth, material goods, freedom, people, etc.), we have a right to retrieve our possessions.

But to take something that was never ours to begin with, just to satisfy our own greed or other vice is not revolutionary or moral or just.

[Akyeame Kwame]

my opinion isn't expressed in this poll. but i have a supplemental question...is it okay (morally, since this is the spirituality forum) to give any money to krakkkaz?

AK

[IfasehunReincarnated]

Well, that's a fair question but I don't see how it's answer is connected to the first. Is it okay to give money to white folks? as in charity or commerce?

I think its important to make choices that don't jeopardize your ability to take care of your family. pilfering is not revolutionary. now causing ecomomic havoc to a grocery store chain that discriminates or overcharges minorities is. one is self centered, and can only get you in jail without any real benefits to your family or the social consciousness of your people. the other is communal and political and strategic and if you end up in jail, you may inspire others out of your selflessness.

We talk about strategy a lot around here. And certainly how we decide to take back what is ours is a matter of strategy, but also a matter of morals. For the sake of reality too, we know we dont want to raise children or nations that think its okay to steal anytime and to label it anything we want. There is a difference in robbing a bank that redlines and putting that money into children, seniors and trainning and robbing a bank as a personal statement against the "man" and pocketing the proceeds. We can say its the same, but its not. and if you're caught people dont look up to you, they look down on you - that is the difference. besides one takes courage, the other doesnt, even when the action is the same, the intent changes the dynamic altogether.

If paying for item keeps me out of jail and in favor with other Afrikans a respectable person, father, husband etc then its very moral. If it allows me to fight in other ways another day, then its moral and responsible. If paying for item keeps us enslaved its the exact opposite.

Perhaps the real answer to your question is that its only immoral to pay white people if you only pay sometimes. That is, consistency is the rule of the day. If you're waging economic war, you shouldnt pay for anything. You ought to steal your car, clothes, food, water, education etc everyday, all day. Anything less than that and people have no choice but to assume that is just a personal choice sparked by emotion and not economic militancy at its core.

Although some people might suggest if its so disgusting to buy good sold by white people, its just as disgusting to own it. why blow it up or burn it up, or make it spoil or throw it away once you have it?
(Now for me this is an suspect position as nothing should be wasted unless its a good that harmful to the planet or to human health. Cars, fuels are items that I would consider fair game, but outside of that it doesnt seem right to steal something and destroy in the name of revolution when people actually need these things)

But anyone attempting to achieve economic war with a one person theft spree may be naive. Now convince 200, or 2,000 or 200,000 to follow suit and you got yourself something there.

[Akyeame Kwame]

Originally Posted by IfasehunReincarnated

Well, that's a fair question but I don't see how it's answer is connected to the first. Is it okay to give money to white folks? as in charity or commerce?

I think its important to make choices that don't jeopardize your ability to take care of your family. pilfering is not revolutionary. now causing ecomomic havoc to a grocery store chain that discriminates or overcharges minorities is. one is self centered, and can only get you in jail without any real benefits to your family or the social consciousness of your people. the other is communal and political and strategic and if you end up in jail, you may inspire others out of your selflessness.

We talk about strategy a lot around here. And certainly how we decide to take back what is ours is a matter of strategy, but also a matter of morals. For the sake of reality too, we know we dont want to raise children or nations that think its okay to steal anytime and to label it anything we want. There is a difference in robbing a bank that redlines and putting that money into children, seniors and trainning and robbing a bank as a personal statement against the "man" and pocketing the proceeds. We can say its the same, but its not. and if you're caught people dont look up to you, they look down on you - that is the difference. besides one takes courage, the other doesnt, even when the action is the same, the intent changes the dynamic altogether.

If paying for item keeps me out of jail and in favor with other Afrikans a respectable person, father, husband etc then its very moral. If it allows me to fight in other ways another day, then its moral and responsible. If paying for item keeps us enslaved its the exact opposite.

Perhaps the real answer to your question is that its only immoral to pay white people if you only pay sometimes. That is, consistency is the rule of the day. If you're waging economic war, you shouldnt pay for anything. You ought to steal your car, clothes, food, water, education etc everyday, all day. Anything less than that and people have no choice but to assume that is just a personal choice sparked by emotion and not economic militancy at its core.

Although some people might suggest if its so disgusting to buy good sold by white people, its just as disgusting to own it. why blow it up or burn it up, or make it spoil or throw it away once you have it?
(Now for me this is an suspect position as nothing should be wasted unless its a good that harmful to the planet or to human health. Cars, fuels are items that I would consider fair game, but outside of that it doesnt seem right to steal something and destroy in the name of revolution when people actually need these things)

But anyone attempting to achieve economic war with a one person theft spree may be naive. Now convince 200, or 2,000 or 200,000 to follow suit and you got yourself something there.

i can dig this position
first question is either in charity or commerce i.e. buying thus making a financial contribution to the system of white supremacy...i would suggest that these financial contributions should be minimized as much as possible (a legal way is thru downsizing to just take care of needs and forget the wants or circulate currency amongst Afrikan people only or as much as possible)

i agree that it must be connected to inspire others out of selffulness (extended self)...like i know a bro. who would go to the local wal-fart and expropriate hundreds of rounds of ammo and teach Afrikans how to shoot, target practice, train, etc...one time he walked out with fifty rounds of .40 caliber ammo in each pocket...i guess those Afrikan clothes were good for something after all...to me this is connected

i know anotha brotha who would go there and get knives, like a dozen of them and teach sistaz basic kali knife training drills and give them to broze and sissas after teaching them how to handle them...to me this is connected

i know anotha bro who would go there and get survival kits, fire starters, water purification tablets, swiss army knives etc. keep some, give some away in being prepared for more martial law and helping others b prepared...cause to me this is connected

i know anotha sista who would go to where krakkkaz were selling Afrikan artifacts and ritual objects and liberally repatriated them...i would have a hard time getting on her case whether they were in a museum or in a krakkka owned boutique...cause to me even this was connected...perhaps even moreso than the more political expropriations, that is if WE choose to separate political expropriations from the spiritual ritual object appropriations...although for me i don't have this split, ones spirituality (and moral sensibilities) should be intimately related to one's politics and vice versa, it's when spirit is split (conceptually, behaviorally, etc.) from all other aspects of life that it becomes "religion"

the second brotha also inspired other broze and sistaz to do the same to be prepared...a good critique that u bring to the table is how WE have no army and expropriation is a volatile act of war...one that could land you in jail, away from family and the outside aspects of the liberation struggle...this is what my father always stressed to me growing up...that it's ridiculous to end up locked up over some trivial b.s. like boostin', jackin', etc...for him it was always minimize the opportunities that u give these krakkkaz to mess with u and yours in preparation for a meaningful strike.

one point that these broze and sissas have made to me (and my father too) is the immorality of financing Our oppression (this is where the relavance of my question comes in)...i.e. the static-dynamic-interlocking-system-of-white-world-terror-domination...i.e. the money from the item i just bought is being used to finance the new prison or the war in eastern Kongo. i agree that if it's not connected then it is immoral...but for them it wasn't a question of it being disgusting...it was a question of it's usefulness to liberation...i agree that the greater the scale the more useful and i think they would too.

i have another question...one that came up in history of the Black church class a few yrs ago back in undergrad that i had been toying with the idea of starting a thread around. the teacher, a preacher, asked the question "were the Afrikans who "stole" chickens, etc. from massa's plantation behaving immorally in doing so?" i won't give away the responses of the aspiring preachers in the class but i'm vry interested in yr opinion on this one...take care and as always stay MOST BLACKNIFICENT!!!

AK

[Cherubim]

It depends on the circumstance......

In Islam, although theft is wrong....a person is allowed to steal if he has no other choice to feed himself or his family.

Just like eating pork is wrong, but it's excused if one is facing starvation.

[IfasehunReincarnated]

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the following messages were sent in by mandingo woman via email:

again, this is not MY post. it belongs to Mandigo Woman

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BLACK POWER!!! Se'Alafia Ni! Hotep! Habari Gani! Shalom! As Salaam
Alaikum! Jambo...

Revolutionary Greetings High Priest

I do not feel that liberation is wrong... it also depends on the mind
and liberation of the individual. Are they stealing? from an elder?
their families? "THAT IS NOT LIBERATION!" That is stealing. Liberation
is when one is aware of the decadent system. They have no job or a
piece of a job ... trying to do the best that he or she can do for their
families. Our brotha and or sistah has been layed off or fired because
the slave master don't want you around no more. Massa wants you to work
long hours for little or almost no pay ... "after taxes. " Your rent
is due... your lights are about to be disconnected. Your food is running
out... your baby is sick... INHUMAN RESOURSES DON'T GIVE A SHIT" ...
the weather is hot... you don't have and cannot afford an air
conditioner... You have old fan, and that was given to you. You have to turn
everything off before you plug the fan in or a fuse will blow your
electricity out. Your meat in the fridge starts to rot... babies milk
spoils... SO WHAT DOES ONE DO... TO SURVIVE... ??? THEY SEIZE THE TIME...
They are frustrated and can't get any credit until their little bit of
check that they worked so had for, from the corner store where our Brotha
and/ or Sistah has been spending at for the past 20 years... GrandMa
and GrandPa, Ma and Pa use to go there... but Pop Pee...said NO! So my
brotha... what do you do... to survive... You find yourself liberating
from a bank... with a gun.. Or taking a loaf of bread and that stick
of butter to survive... *****THAT IS LIBERATION*****... "NOT
STEALING"... MALCOLM SAID... "FREEDOM BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY"
STRAIGHT AHEAD>>> ON THE FRONT LINE~Warlordess in the WhirlWind~

[IfasehunReincarnated]

I do not accept unemployment as a good reason to steal or rob or to pilfer. Why? Because it was never anyone's responsbility but our own to take care of us.

If its okay to steal from someone because white people are racist employers, then its okay to sell heroine, cocaine, crack, meth, crank, X, pcp, etc etc.

If its okay to steal cable tv, then its okay to hit somebody over the head to get a purse. where do you draw the line?

Who is stopping us from starting a small business? Who is stopping us from packing up all our stuff moving to a small black town down south and growing our own food? Who is stopping us from taking old clothes and sewing them back up to make new outfits? Now, I am not saying that we "want" to live this way, but its more ethical than just deciding "hey you know? its the white man's fault anyway. I just need to steal me something, or push these rocks to even the score."

Why black people riot they always riot in black neighborhoods. Wouldnt it be better to drive an Asian or Arab out of your hood and keep the store? Instead of burning it down and looting it? When we mad at the police we go the streets and turn over cars, fist fight in broad daylight. Wouldnt it be better to make an agreement to not call them anymore, not cooperate anymore, find our own criminals, dish out our own sentences? etc etc.

Why does our solution get tagged on to their actions? Its reactionary at worst, telling our confidence at best.

Again, if you want to wage war, do it. Dont do it because you broke. dont do it because the lights are out. dont do it because you wish for once it was you in the Jordans and fresh fitted cap. do it because its rights and do it everyday, all day. even if you got a $1,000 in your pocket. and do it for us. not for you.

its disgusting to think how many grandmama's are taking the money earned by their dope dealer sons. its disgusting to see a booster come back and give his mama a fur coat and she puts it on. its disgusting to see a young brother eat lobster cause he boosted the grocery store and his family sit down for the meal.

you know when i was in college there were people in the financial aid line with fur coats that drove to school in Benzes! a lot of them. now here I am wondering if I can afford tuition and a dorm room and they going to happy hour after their financial aid check comes. They got money for a dorm room AND an apartment. they "on the come up" and they quickly said, "i am sticking it to the man" (at a black college no less!) my question is - "if you sticking it to him, why i am still stuck here?"

liberating goods is an act you do for people. not just for self. and you do it with an end in mind. to cripple a racist business. to force change in policy at a business. if it aint inspirational, it aint revolutionary. if makes you look like a criminal or it puts you at unnecessary risk of losing contact with your family, its not revolutionary.

[Akyeame Kwame]

Originally Posted by IfasehunReincarnated

liberating goods is an act you do for people. not just for self. and you do it with an end in mind. to cripple a racist business. to force change in policy at a business. if it aint inspirational, it aint revolutionary. if makes you look like a criminal or it puts you at unnecessary risk of losing contact with your family, its not revolutionary.

i unite with this wholeheartedly...expropriation with a purpose...stay BlackNificent!

AK

[SheRose]

I don't believe it's okay to steal under ANY circumstances except in a time of war and being born in AMERIKKKA, war is all I have EVER known. No, I haven't had to go into a store yet and steal to live but I don't doubt there are many who feel and have had to do just that. There are many mini worlds in THIS world and unless you've lived in all of them at one time or other you don't know what the hell you would or wouldn't do if you became hungry enough, poor enough, naked enough, mad enough or dying enough.

Judge not, lest you be judged and KNOW that with the same MEASURE with which you judge, YOU SHALL BE JUDGED. I'll leave it right there.

Sherose

[Kweku_Omowale]

alafia warriors,queens,assafos, let me tell youa story about my homeland, brazil,the largest place on earth,witha great contigent of afrikans in the americas,in my home town of a rio de janeiro, at one time, people looteda super market, the question,in time right now,as the poll asks,is it ok to steal,i would say no, why did the poor people looteda supermarket near the shanty town?
mainly due to socio economic reason,where my grandmother comes from and lives is surrounded by mountains and shanty towns and ghettoes,brazilian ghettoes will make amerikkkan ghettoes look like first world class homes,i have been there,in brazil,people steal solely due to necessity,not because of the will,it is the need to survive,however... i dont advocate theft, the struggle makes the man, in my 38 years,in our escorched earth,i have found out that the universe works in cycle of energy,what you do will come back to you,and i dont want to havea heavy karma,often times,when growing up people would steal things and sometimes,put the tab on me," oh he did it" kind of thing.
not too long ago, i was working and receiving social assistance,in kanada is illegal to work and receive welfare,but i did it,because, where i was working, i hada very racist boss,who told me" why when people call blacks nigger,they get upset,but when they call demselves,it is ok..."
so i was told i was stealing from the ones who needed the most,while growing up with my grandmother,she always said" you think,someone is not watching,but god is watching you..." and i knoe fora fact that stealing has nothing to do with revolution,we endure certain things in life to be able to value life what people takes from me,OLODUNMARE,the creator will give me twice back in return and the orisas will deal with those who have stolen from me,things, many times,i have worked for people,who stole my pay,never paid me,the creator is watching,and it has mostly being done by yts,so they will have their turn,their turn will come